The Slippery Slope...

[blues7]

There I was...happy as a clam for a dozen or so years after putting in my papers and bidding Uncle Sam adieu. Had a few tried and true firearms which I carried on and off the job and never gave a thought to adding anything new. Life was easy.

Then one day I made the mistake of hanging out with my friend and neighbor for some shooting on his property and among the firearms of his we shot that day were his Ruger GP100 and Colt AR-15.

A month or so later I had a S&W 686+ to scratch one itch.
Less than a month after that I had an M&P15 TS and that itch too appeared to be scratched.

Oh, I was only too aware that like a beloved mate the AR would need to be fed, clothed and pampered but little did I know how much time would be spent mooning over it.

I told myself that I wouldn't go overboard, didn't want to spend a lot of money on this and that I only needed a few essentials such as a sling, a light and maybe...MAYBE...an RDS.

Well, I got the sling. A Magpul MS4 (Gen 2). Got the light...a Streamlight TLR-1 HL and said to myself: "I'll be prudent and wait before adding an RDS."

In the intervening days and weeks I found that I pretty much always needed more ammo, another Dewey rod, kit or Otis system cleaning accessory. Patches, jags, Ramrodz. Lubricant, CLP, and yes, even a simple cleaning cradle.

But, ever mindful of the slippery slope I held off on the RDS.
Oh, iron sights will be good enough for me. After all, in our woods you can barely get a clear shot approaching 100 yards. And I want to keep it simple...and inexpensive. You know...

But no...you guys just had to sing the praises of the RDS and herald its virtues. Aging eyes you warned. Threats from zombies you admonished. Roving gangs of meth heads you wisely pointed out.

And so, "yes", I said to myself, "it's true...the world is daily becoming a more dangerous and unrecognizable place. Who will protect my wife and dog? Who will look out for the few neighbors I can actually stand? And wouldn't an RDS complete the TS? You know, just like we planned all along. Sling, light, and red dot sight."

And so...you know...I'm really quite sure that this Aimpoint PRO I just back ordered yesterday will be the very last thing I'll ever need for my M&P15 TS. Yep...positive. Honestly.

My name is Elliott and I'm an AR-aholic.

[SeniorChief5352]

You're not alone...

I started with the M&P15 MOE Mid... At which point, Household 6 needed an M&P15 TS... At least she thinks it's hers...

The MOE was meant to be a "stock" gun. I started with an EOTech EXPS3-4 G33 HHS1 and light. EOTech was returned for a refund. I then added an Aimpoint T2 Micro with a Larue QD. Alas, something was still missing, so a Harris bipod it was... This morning I'm sad to admit that Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 3-9x40 was ordered because well you know the old eyes ain't what they used to be... This wraps up the "stock" MOE...

Now it starts all over again with the TS.

AR-aholics unite!

[blues7]

"A mansk after me own heart! Thanks, Chief!"

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by blues7

.... just back ordered yesterday will be the very last thing I'll ever need....

Buddy and I have a running joke about firearms in general when we buy something.... "And that's all I'll need".

And it feels true at the moment I click the buy button. Then the package arrives, accessory or gun, a period of time passes... then... well ya'll know the rest of the story.

Aimpoint is a great choice.

ARs are habit forming....

[SeniorChief5352]

10 minutes after I posted earlier I ordered 2 Wilson Combat TTUs (4.5#) for the MOE & TS along with a Fail Zero BCG... I'm really DONE now.

Now to intercept the monthly CC statement at the mail box before HH6 sees it...

[blues7]

Fortunately "6 Actual" in my own household is a very happy and forgiving spirit.

Somehow she has come to the conclusion that if we can afford something and it makes me, (us), happy, then what's the harm? You can't take it with you.

I knew there was a good reason I married her 29 years ago.

By the way, Chief, keep it up. You're making me feel better about myself by the minute. If you ever need detox, we have a spare bedroom and nice woods, mountains and waterfalls hereabouts.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by blues7

And so...you know...I'm really quite sure that this Aimpoint PRO I just back ordered yesterday will be the very last thing I'll ever need for my M&P15 TS. Yep...positive. Honestly.

Yeah, we've all said that. As I type this, in a second tab I have an ACOG that I'm drooling over. I've finally admitted that the simple red dot with no magnification isn't working for me. The 1-4x24 scope is great, but I never take it off 4x and it's heavier than necessary. So, I may go to a fixed ACOG.

Meh, this is our hobby. Have fun with it.

[SeniorChief5352]

Blues,

My version of HH6 is an accountant... I'd rather pet a diamondback rattler versus letting her see my cc statement.

Woods, mountains and waterfalls... Don't tempt me!

[blues7]

Originally Posted by SeniorChief5352

Blues,

My version of HH6 is an accountant... I'd rather pet a diamondback rattler versus letting her see my cc statement.

Woods, mountains and waterfalls... Don't tempt me!

Mine's a Sicilian. Pick your poison!

[REM 3200]

Originally Posted by SeniorChief5352

10 minutes after I posted earlier I ordered 2 Wilson Combat TTUs (4.5#) for the MOE & TS along with a Fail Zero BCG... I'm really DONE now.

Now to intercept the monthly CC statement at the mail box before HH6 sees it...

You will love the Wilson TTUs. I have one and could not be happier with it.
Same goes for the Aimpoint Pro. IMHO, the best trigger and RDS on the market.

[blues7]

Originally Posted by REM 3200

You will love the Wilson TTUs. I have one and could not be happier with it.
Same goes for the Aimpoint Pro. IMHO, the best trigger and RDS on the market.

Good to hear about the Aimpoint...

...But wait a minute, Babalooey! Am I going to need a trigger now? Hmmm, I can't afford to let Chief get too far ahead with his TS. Then again, he won't want a Command Sergeant Major to get a leg up on him...and so it goes.

By the way, since I put my papers in I seem to see a lot of former employees of Uncle who jumped after 27 years. I'm sure it's just coincidence, like noticing folks who have the same birthday. I was on from 1977-2004.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by SeniorChief5352

10 minutes after I posted earlier I ordered 2 Wilson Combat TTUs (4.5#) for the MOE & TS along with a Fail Zero BCG... I'm really DONE now.

Now to intercept the monthly CC statement at the mail box before HH6 sees it...

I've got a WC TTU 4.5. Love it.

blues7, it'd be a shame to shoot your AR with that nice Aimpoint red dot without a WC trigger. Order one now and you'll have time to install it and have the rifle ready for that new Aimpoint when it arrives. That's all you'll need. Why waste the ammo with factory trigger...

[blues7]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

I've got a WC TTU 4.5. Love it.

blues7, it'd be a shame to shoot your AR with that nice Aimpoint red dot without a WC trigger. Order one now and you'll have time to install it and have the rifle ready for that new Aimpoint when it arrives. That's all you'll need. Why waste the ammo with factory trigger...

Somehow I just knew that this thread would be dangerous to my (financial) health.

(I'll take it under advisement. Though I'll admit that I just finished watching the installation video on the site. )

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by blues7

.....I'll admit that I just finished watching the installation video on the site. )

And that's how it starts... and never ends.

Here's an independant review and install guide (super easy). Enjoy.

Wilson Combat Tactical Trigger Unit (10,000 trips of the trigger)

Wilson Combat TTU Installation Guide

[Rastoff]

I just put one of these in my AR: 4lb Velocity AR Trigger at



This cost me $150 shipped to my door. Last week I used it in a 4 day class where we fired about 500 rounds. I can't say enough good things about this trigger. Not expensive, super crisp and I can't feel any creep or over travel. I'm sure they are both there, otherwise the trigger wouldn't work, but I can't feel it.

[blues7]

There should be a sign up above stating "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here".

Hanging around these parts is near as bad as being the eunuch guarding the harem.

[oldIrish]

There's nothing like enjoying a cup of coffee and watching
guys shop from someone else's wallet. I've been caught too
many times and now have to leave my credit cards in another
room when I log onto the forum.

[blues7]

@rastoff & @ChattanoogaPhil:

Since I only have a total of 60 or so trigger pulls on my TS since its return from Springfield I think I'll resist replacing it until I can determine whether it presents an issue with my style of shooting or not.

I've never replaced a trigger on any firearm over the years except for mandatory trigger replacements on my duty and personally owned Glocks while still employed.

Now I can foresee when I go to shoot later this week I'll be saying "Hey David, doesn't the action on this trigger feel gritty or something? I should probably replace it."

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by blues7

@rastoff & @ChattanoogaPhil:

Since I only have a total of 60 or so trigger pulls on my TS since its return from Springfield I think I'll resist replacing it until I can determine whether it presents an issue with my style of shooting or not.

See... there's already 60 rounds wasted with a factory trigger. Could have been another $20 toward that new tigger!

[blues7]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

See... there's already 60 rounds wasted with a factory trigger. Could have been another $20 toward that new tigger!

Yeah, but you're not taking into account the fact that I'd probably be the one guy to screw up the installation of a drop in trigger and end up wishing for a factory version from S&W.

(Even a dolt like me can reliably connect an accessory to a rail.)

[blues7]

For those of you who have never seen a recent image of Svengali, er, I mean ChattanoogaPhil:



"And that's all you'll need..."

[OK Hog Shooter]

Ahhh... ARs... I hate to bring up another point... but just wait till you start looking at other calibers... and manufacturers seem to be producing upgrades and revolutionary new accessories faster than you can say... "I gotta get one of those"... I have given up... no, not really!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues7]

Originally Posted by OK Hog Shooter

Ahhh... ARs... I hate to bring up another point... but just wait till you start looking at other calibers... and manufacturers seem to be producing upgrades and revolutionary new accessories faster than you can say... "I gotta get one of those"... I have given up... no, not really!

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My Aimpoint and Wilson Combat TTU... Oooooooooooo... ya got to have it bro... you'll be losing sleep until you do.

[blues7]

You know, I can make it to Chattanooga in under 4 hours, don't you?

(Hell, I can't even threaten you...you have more and better guns! )

Get thee behind me, Svengali!

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by blues7

You know, I can make it to Chattanooga in under 4 hours, don't you?


p)

Come on over. We'll take some guns to the Club and get ya hooked on suppressed shooting too.

[blues7]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Come on over. We'll take some guns to the Club and get ya hooked on suppressed shooting too.

I may have to take you up on that sometime. It would be great to meet you and get spoiled by "the club".

Had I the foresight, I might have taken care of the matter of licensing for suppressors when I worked joint cases with ATF in years gone by. As sibling Treasury agencies we routinely supported each others investigations.

Also worked some good arms cases back in the day along with (what was then) Defense Investigative Service and Air Force OSI. Mostly the Eastern Bloc trying to smuggle arms and munitions out or smuggle their stuff in. We'd borrow military hardware for flash to impress the bad guys and establish our bona fides in our undercover ops.

[Grjfer]

Yep I was done 3 AR's ago.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by blues7

Hanging around these parts is near as bad as being the eunuch guarding the harem.

We are a bunch of enablers. We love our job!

Originally Posted by blues7

Yeah, but you're not taking into account the fact that I'd probably be the one guy to screw up the installation of a drop in trigger and end up wishing for a factory version from S&W.

(Even a dolt like me can reliably connect an accessory to a rail.)

If you can connect something to a rail, you can install a drop in cartridge type trigger. It's much easier than installing a factory trigger. See, with the Wilson or Velocity shown above, not to mention a hundred other manufacturers, there is only one part to deal with. With a factory or Mil-Spec fire control group, there are several parts and you have to overcome the pressure of a couple springs as well. AND, you have to get those springs installed correctly or the gun won't work.

Yeah, cartridge type trigger is the way to go.

Failing that, consider doing the 15 minute trigger job: 15 Minute Practical Trigger Job for the AR-15

If you skip the part about cutting one leg off the hammer spring, you'll still have a really smooth trigger. Much better than stock. It will still have too much creep, but you won't care because it's so smooth. The other triggers are better, but this only costs time and really does work.

See, we're not so bad. I just saved you a bunch of money.

[blues7]

Actually, Doug, when I looked at the video on the Wilson Combat site the installation seemed pretty straight forward.

Then I read a review somewhere a short while later where the author was evaluating nine aftermarket triggers. The Wilson and Velocity were among that group.

IIRC, the Wilson trigger was his pick for second place. He did mention that of the triggers tested it was the hardest install (with that term being relative to the other triggers...not that it was particularly difficult). The Velocity came in a bit lower but he did mention its many good points from his perspective.

At the present moment I don't plan on messing with the trigger or internals until or unless I feel that something is either amiss or otherwise holding my own or the rifle's performance back. At this early date I haven't yet determined where that line is. I hope to do so sooner rather than later.

__________________________________________________________



"Sad. Very sad. That there Blues fella doesn't know what he's missing. Okay now, step right up! Step up I say!"

[blues7]

Here's a link to the trigger review I mentioned above.



On another note...the only person besides you, Doug, that appears to really be trying to save me any money is my new hero, Kenan Flasowski:

A carbine is great for home defense as long as it is reliable so I do recommend them. The first thing anybody should hang on their gun is a light. You can’t hit what you can’t see, and civilians definitely should never engage a human target unless you can positively identify it as a threat. You cannot do that at night without a light. Plus the benefit of blinding them with 120 lumens of strobing disorientation will give you a distinct advantage.

Next would be a good lightweight two-point sling, then a red dot reflex sight. I see guns with a lot of extra weight (forward pistol grip, incredibly adjustable stocks, four pound slings, etc) added to them for not a lot of benefit.

[Rastoff]

Interesting read. I haven't read it all, but I'm not surprised by what he found.

I will say this, in a combat type situation, I don't think these triggers are a great improvement. If you're trying for maximum accuracy, they make a big difference, but not when firing controlled pairs under time pressure.

I have both a POF and the aforementioned Velocity. Both feel almost exactly the same to me and each cost $150. I like the installation method for the Velocity better. Is the Wilson better? Probably, but the only people who will be able to tell are those who are much better shooters than I.

In the end it will all depend on what you want. The 15 minute trigger job served me well until I saved up a few bucks and got the Velocity. Does this trigger make me a better shooter? I don't think so, but it is really nice to shoot.

[blues7]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Interesting read. I haven't read it all, but I'm not surprised by what he found.

I will say this, in a combat type situation, I don't think these triggers are a great improvement. If you're trying for maximum accuracy, they make a big difference, but not when firing controlled pairs under time pressure.

Bingo. That's my primary concern, Doug. Recreational shooting, a bit of practicing and brushing up my former tactical skills and maintaining a firearm which will stand ready should it ever be called upon to do duty as a battle rifle.

[Rastoff]

Then don't touch your trigger. It will be fine as delivered from the factory. You will get much more benefit by spending that money on ammo.

[SeniorChief5352]

Originally Posted by blues7

Good to hear about the Aimpoint...

...But wait a minute, Babalooey! Am I going to need a trigger now? Hmmm, I can't afford to let Chief get too far ahead with his TS. Then again, he won't want a Command Sergeant Major to get a leg up on him...and so it goes.

You can't go wrong with Aimpoint. Even a CSM can use one correctly 9 times out of 10...

Do yourself a favor, pick up a trigger... It's the best investment I've made to date.

[blues7]

Do yourself a favor, pick up a trigger... It's the best investment I've made to date.

[Dennis]

I never wanted to have to clean another m16 for the rest of my life after qualifing with them in the Corps after 20 years. That was in 91 when i retired. About 3 or four years ago, i figured oh what the hell... Built a nice LR type '15, then a mid-range, then a short range cqb-type, then got a 458 socom upper and built another lower. Lately another '15... GP use.
ALG triggers are great triggers for general use and not too expensive. Returned my eotechs and put a PRO on my cqb-type and a nice 1-4 loopy on my 458.
IT WILL SUCK YOU IN! LOL

[rwsmith]

They are easy to get, but it's the care and feeding that is the tough part.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

SeniorChief5352 is right on target. There is no better investment.

Unlike a set of Ping golf clubs that won't improve a duffer's golf shots, a quality trigger will improve the shooting of even those who don't practice much. From bench shooting to duty, the right trigger for the job makes a significant difference.

Choose wisely. When you see those lesser priced fancy colored anodized triggers keep in mind the article in MilitaryTimes. It isn't just about how the trigger feels out of the box -- we’ve had other upper-end triggers turn to junk with really low round counts. -- All precision triggers are not created equal, and some shouldn’t be created at all.

Safety, performance and durability...

Simplicity is also a consideration. Set screws... adjustable pull... No thanks. Notice the notes in your link about safety concerns with Velocity which is more about the lack of simplicity of install design and the end user than a safety design flaw. All considerations...

[blues7]

All good points, Phil, and if I were to change the trigger out (myself) I would opt for the most foolproof and robust design.

Scrimping on a part so critical to the rifle's reliability would be foolish at best.

No, if I decide to venture down this road, (after some more shooting and testing with the TS with the OEM trigger), it will be one sans adjustments. That pretty much means the Wilson Combat.

[snm8510]

Anybody have any experience with the SRC Reliabolt? Been eyeballing it (bolt only, not entire bcg), but haven't pulled the trigger yet..

I feel this thread is just here to see how many goodies we can make each other buy for their AR without their wives knowing..

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by snm8510

Anybody have any experience with the SRC Reliabolt? Been eyeballing it, but haven't pulled the trigger yet..

I feel this thread is just here to see how many goodies we can make each other buy for their AR without their wives knowing..

That would be the perfect addition to any rifle. I think I'll buy three!

Seriously... that looks like a solution in search of a problem. Maybe JaPes will come along and share his opinion. I know he's had some experience with whiz-bang BCGs.

[Kadonny]

Originally Posted by Grjfer

Yep I was done 3 AR's ago.

This.

@blues7 I will laugh because I was in the exact same spot a few years ago that you are at right now. I was done upgrading and putting parts on my Sport, it was perfect, I'm all set!

Then one day I thought....hmmm.....I really want a Colt, you know just to have one. What happened then? I found one on sale with a price I could not refuse. So it starts again, of course I had to add parts to that one too. But finally, it was perfect, outfitted just the way I wanted.

Then I got thinking, boy, I'd love to have a .300blk rifle, you know to maybe buy a supressor one day. But the cool thing is I only need an upper since they use they use the same .223 lower. Guess what, I bought the .300blk upper, got a great price too . Then I got thinking, I really need a lower for that upper, I mean it just looks lost without a lower. Then I thought, hey, this would be the perfect time to try building my own lower. Guess what, I built my first lower. I was all set, really I was! This time I really mean it.

Then Primary Arms had the stones to send me an email ad where all their Noveske uppers were on sale, how dare they! Guess what......yup got my Noveske upper in on Friday. Well now I'm halfway to a real Noveske, guess I'll have to build a Noveske lower to put that uppon on top of.

Anyway, short story long. You are never done, and you'll never own just one AR. Accept your fate now, it will be easier. Oh, and as others have said, just wait until that suppressor bug bites you too, that's when it gets expesive!

[Maddmax]

blues7. Looks like you took the bait hook, line and sinker. There's no known antidote for Black Rifle Fever or any actual cure. Once actual eye contact has been made it's already too late, touching is fatal. The low end models (cost not quality), make it a reasonable entry price to draw you in closer. You do your homework and discover Forums on the internet and find people enjoying the sport and in the know willing to lend a hand to "new comers". You can run, but you can't hide. Accessories are like taking an aspirin for a migraine. I thought maybe the M&P handguns would help, NOT even close. Same goes for the 7.62X51 Black Rifles. It's an itch that's hard to scratch. Welcome to the club.

Just remember the basics. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple ......, more parts can mean more things to go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not All That Glitters is Gold, there is a LOT of knock-off junk out there.

[Kadonny]

Oh, and someone talk me out of this pencil barrel fetish I have right now too.......

[blues7]

Originally Posted by Maddmax

blues7. Looks like you took the bait hook, line and sinker. ...snip...Just remember the basics. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple ......, more parts can mean more things to go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not All That Glitters is Gold, there is a LOT of knock-off junk out there.

Actually, I haven't really gone too far overboard yet.

As far as the rifle itself is concerned I've only added the MS4 sling (and QD hardware), Streamlight TLR-1 HL and ordered the Aimpoint PRO. These are pretty much pieces of equipment that I would consider requisite for a home defense rifle.

I did consider the optic to be somewhat of an option due to the MBUS being adequate for the ranges I intend to employ the rifle.

(I have a light and tactical sling on my Remington 870 but no optic and feel very comfortable with it for home and property defense.)

Phil had already convinced me to replace the buffer spring with a chrome silicon version. ($6 from Damage Industries.)

Waffling a bit on purchasing the trigger for a couple of reasons. Cost is, of course, one of them. The other is that 60 rounds down range is not enough to evaluate the rifle, especially after nearly flinching waiting for the dreaded failure to fire after getting the rifle back from S&W warranty repair. When I could finally relax I didn't notice anything at that juncture which made me feel that the trigger was lacking. (I did jerk a few and knew it immediately...but that was the exception and it was my fault.)

So, I'm guessing Wilson Combat will still have 'em when I'm ready.

Really, since getting the rifle I've spent most of my time and money on buying training and "duty" ammo plus a variety of tools and products for cleaning and maintenance. Maybe more than I needed for a bare bones G.I. type setup but nothing extraordinary. 30" Dewey rod and chamber kit, Otis MSR field kit, patches / swabs, a boresnake and lubes which have proven tried and true for many years.

Oh yeah, a $30 MTM Portable Rifle/Shotgun Maintenance Center so I don't have to sit on the floor with the rifle in my lap all the time.

I think that shows a reasonable amount of restraint so far. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by blues7

Actually, I haven't really gone too far overboard yet.

As far as the rifle itself is concerned I've only added the MS4 sling (and QD hardware), Streamlight TLR-1 HL and ordered the Aimpoint PRO. These are pretty much pieces of equipment that I would consider requisite for a home defense rifle.

Well... you purchased the TS which gave you a slipperly slope head start on the Sport guys.

Freefloat 13" Troy® TRX Extreme Handguard.
Vortex Flash-Hider
Front and rear MBUS
Magpul stock
Magpul grip

See... you were already slipping and sliding before even getting your hands on the rifle.

[blues7]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Well... you purchased the TS which gave you a slipperly slope head start on the Sport guys.

Freefloat 13" Troy® TRX Extreme Handguard.
Vortex Flash-Hider
Front and rear MBUS
Magpul stock
Magpul grip

See... you were already slipping and sliding before even getting your hands on the rifle.

Oh yeah...there's that.

But at least the LE discount brought the somewhat astronomical retail price of $1569 down to a more reasonable $1100. So I got that going for me.

(It's like getting the Aimpoint PRO for free! Yeah, that's the ticket! )

[snm8510]

I see y'all keep mentioning replacing the trigger.. I've never messed with an upgraded trigger so I'm in the dark about these.. Honestly, from other rifles I've shot, the AR has quite a pleasant stock pull compared to most.. My MOE MID's has no creep or slop from what I can tell, so what is all the hype about like the Wilson Combat trigger?? Not doing three gun or any race type stuff and use my rifle for plinking, hd/sd, and coyote/varmaint hunting so is it really that justifiable??

[blues7]

Originally Posted by snm8510

I see y'all keep mentioning replacing the trigger.. I've never messed with an upgraded trigger so I'm in the dark about these.. Honestly, from other rifles I've shot, the AR has quite a pleasant stock pull compared to most.. My MOE MID's has no creep or slop from what I can tell, so what is all the hype about like the Wilson Combat trigger?? Not doing three gun or any race type stuff and use my rifle for plinking, hd/sd, and coyote/varmaint hunting so is it really that justifiable??