Ouch! I'm sure you'll have a replacement in no time.

Glad to hear about the trigger. (Kinda sorta...)

Keep us posted.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Can't say I was ever a big fan of the carry handle. To me, they just didn't feel right and I never used them. I used the butt under my arm, hand on the grip or the sling.

How ever, once Magpul came out with the metal BUIS, I did start switching over to those. I like metal over polymer, they still fold and the front sight doesn't need a tool to adjust the post.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Don't care for the RMR either. It suffers the same curved glass distortion as does my Burris FF III, along with the light issues you describe.

If I replace the Aimpoint I might take a look at the 1.5x or 2x ACOG models. I just don't find magnification of much value shooting offhand. If anything, it makes me more tentative. That said, as my eyes feel the time go by I'm increasingly thinking that I may just find it more comfortable to have a sharper image down range. I'm not quite there... yet.

Trijicon recently came out with the MRO. LaRue sells it with one of their QD mounts for under $500. That's an attractive price. I was hoping it would be on par with the Aimpoint Micro but have heard some less than glowing remarks.

I see that the new version of the MBUS Pro LR contains an elevation adjustment wheel for the rear sight.

I happened upon some reviews on amazon last night before hitting the sack and as you say, there were some pretty disappointed customers who weighed in on it.


Getting back to iron sights for a moment...

I'm wondering how much of an upgrade, (beyond the smaller size and metal construction), the Magpul Pro sights would be over the polymer. I know one advantage is that the front sight does not need the tool for adjustment. One downside (potentially) is that the sights are not spring loaded like the polymer MBUS.

Anyone else have experience with them? Or a better alternative?

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I don't know... but Google "MBUS drop test comparison".
The results might surprise you.

I'll go have a look-see.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Alrighty then...I just saved $180+ on new iron sights.
(Shame on me, a long and devoted Glock devotee for ever doubting the power of polymer. )

Triggers and optics...triggers and optics...triggers and optics.

See? I may not have jumped (yet) but it don't mean I ain't been listening.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I don't have the "curved glass" issue that you do Phil. Maybe we just see things differently? Mine seems perfectly un-distorted. Then again, I haven't looked at it for that specific quality. At least, it doesn't stand out to me as distorted.

I will look closer at it this evening.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

BTW, speaking of triggers and optics...just out of curiosity, would installing an aftermarket trigger in an M&P15 void the S&W warranty?

(I realize that someone with more knowledge and dexterity would probably be able to remove the aftermarket and reinstall the OEM trigger...but I'm just curious what the S&W policy is on such modifications to the "as delivered" firearm.)

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

That "falls" into my tooo many moving parts list for having just a simple BUIS.

Never really cared for the spring loaded pop up sights one way or the other. So not having them on the metal sights isn't a big deal.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I can't imagine an issue where that could be. In any event, if you ever have the need to send your rifle to S&W don't send it with aftermarket parts.

Forget about the warranty. I mean... the notion that you're not going to do with your rifle what you want to do for fear of voiding the warranty is silly. Anything can be replaced from a zillion different vendors for not much money.

DO NOT send ANY S&W firearm back to the factory with-out the original OEM parts installed. It's a liability thing on their end.

It might not void the warrantee (depending on how drastic the add-on parts are), but they WILL BE REMOVED and the weapon restored to its original factory condition. You may or MAY NOT get your parts back. Don't even send the mag. They have plenty of their own.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

When I sent my TS back for warranty work after putting a grand total of one round down range, the only items on the rifle which weren't on it when it was received were a 2" Troy rail section that came with the rifle and I had affixed to the handguard; and two QD cups: one from Midwest Industries that fit around the castle nut and the other from IWC that was installed on the MOE stock.

None of those items were missing or removed...but yeah, I'd not send in magazines or aftermarket items otherwise, especially nothing of value.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

They all have it. Some folks don't notice it. Just like my Burris FF III, lots of guys say there is no distortion. But even Burris admits there's something like 1.08x magnification. Some eyes are more sensitive to it or perhaps more conditioned to using a true 1x optic like Aimpoint.

Here's a review of an RMR. See the chart item "Glass". Now the guy is way off thinking it's like 1.5x. https://trex-arms.com/trijicon-rmr-v...1-for-pistols/

The distortion is there, particularly noticeable around the permitter similar to fisheye effect.

Those would be considered non essential items with the safe function of the weapon or it's operation. So while being a mute point with some employees, others (that like to flex their "power") employees... they'll push the very edge of the line. If they are nice, they'll just remove and return the parts. Not nice, scrap bin ???

One of the reasons I've stayed with S&W (and a few others), is their warrantee. They back it up and do it on their own dime to boot if it's their fault or even sometimes not their fault.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Gents,

I've narrowed my new upper assembly down to the following:

20" Bravo Company BCM SS410 Upper Receiver Group with ALPHA 15" Handguard.

Or

20" LaRue Tactical 5.56 Stealth Sniper System (LT011) I've dealt with Larue many times in the past. Always had excellent service and quality upon delivery.

Have any of you dealt with Bravo Company in the past? I'm mainly concerned with barrel quality. What say you?

This upper will be paired with an M&P15 lower that's just laying around... The rifle will be used to reach out and touch 'stuff' beyond 450 yards.

So let me see if I understand how this works...I've got a spare tire valve stem cap laying around in the garage, so...ipso facto...new off-road vehicle!

Damn, the stuff you learn on this forum!

(Oh, and don't forget that bipod that's just sitting around! )

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

No it's more like I have this engine laying around with no car to put it in. That's a better analogy. The lower is half the build.

__________________
Still carrying my S&W 642

K, I think you missed my (apparently feeble) attempt at sarcasm. That's okay, you can stand me to a Laphroaig, (your choice), and my feelings won't be hurt.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

For you guys that have both...can a red dot be seen if you use a weapon light on your rifle to illuminate a threat?

I don't plan on using my TS as my primary inside the home defense firearm. That task is assigned to my Glock 19 with standard or extended mag which would hopefully allow me to reach an 870 with 7 rounds of reduced recoil 00 buckshot.

I have tested several times and with the Surefire weapon light on the shotgun forend, and the Streamlight TLR-1 HL on the AR, I can clearly see both the front bead of the shotgun as well as the MBUS on the M&P15.

If you had occasion to employ your AR with your weapon light either indoors or out, would the dot be washed out by the light or could you pick it up on the target?

(I realize that for close range encounters you may very well be in a quick point and shoot situation and that the weapon light alone acts as a crude aiming device with or without sights but bear with me since I have no way of testing this with an RDS.)

Thanks, gents.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Blues,

No washout issues for me with either Aimpoint or EOTech running 650 lumen streamlight indoors or out in the dark. You should be g2g.

Thank you, brother. That's just the info I needed to make my decision.

Alas, I have succumbed and placed an order for the Aimpoint H-2 with LT-660 (QD) mount via the LaRue Tactical site.

Can the Wilson Combat TR-TTU trigger be far behind?

(The trigger I will wait on until I have more time to properly evaluate the OEM trigger, however. The RDS I could justify as the rifle only came with the MBUS and I had always intended to add an optic at some point.)

Oh, the shame...

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Oh, I get it now....sorry I'm a little slow at times.

Regarding the flashlight, you should be fine, you are seeing the dot in the optic which projects into the light stream no problem at all.

Remember too, when I think HD I am not just thinking inside the house. I'm not fearful of a zombie apocolypse, even though I'm a Walking Dead fan, I'm more fearful of terrorism wiping out power grids, wiping out water supplies etc. that will put into motion looting, maylee etc. In these scenarios you might be protecting your doors/windows from looters/intruders etc. and that's where the red dot will shine. 10-100 yard targets with quick acquisition.

__________________
Still carrying my S&W 642

You're welcome.

Order the trigger today. That way while you're thinking about ordering it all weekend it will already be on the way.

You and I are on the same page. (And my wife and I also enjoy TWD as ridiculous as it may be.)

It's (relatively) cheap insurance, especially if it lasts for many years without a hiccup. I tend to take care of my equipment so I'm hoping that will prove to be the case. Based upon the reviews, I don't think I have a lot to fear on that account.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Don't think I didn't give it thought. But no, I'm gonna give the OEM a fair test next time out. If I find it wanting I'll bite the bullet, so to speak.



"And that's all you'll need..."

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I just wanted to add don't forget natural disasters. Terrorism isn't the only real threat we face here at home.

Hurricane Katrina brought out the worst in New Orleans. The pretzels were running wild and unchecked. Law enforcement was nonexistent for +/- 48 hours after landfall. After NOPD and JPSO got redeployed it was already too late.

There was rampant looting in my neighborhood. Luckily, I didn't evacuate with my family. I was prepared to defend myself and my property. A few of my neighbors to each side of me also stayed behind. While we had wind, tree and some water damage we had no looting or theft.

In a situation like this rapid target acquisition is a must. RDS' shine in this environment.

I was living on a barrier island, (Key Biscayne), during Hurricane Andrew in 1992 so, like you, I know full well the devastation and aftermath of those natural disasters.

We spent several weeks delivering generators, water and moving other agents and their families from their wrecked homes.

Fortunately, I personally didn't encounter the scum that take advantage of such circumstances. Then again, in South FL pretty much everyone is armed so you take your chances.

When my brother and sister in law went through Sandy (up in Howard Beach, NY) there was a lot of looting and mayhem and NYPD had their hands full.

My neighbor (and shooting partner) and I here in the western NC mountains have a mutual assistance pact. If one needs help the other will come running. My other friend and neighbor 100 yards or so up the road is a deputy with the S.O. and is on board with that as well.

We don't welcome trouble but we won't abide it either.

Better to be prepared than the alternative.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Agreed on the disaster thing, another very real scenario. Good reads guys.

__________________
Still carrying my S&W 642

Until you personally experience the difference, you'll likely be satisfied with a GI trigger. It's kinda like watching an old CRT TV. It's difficult to understand how poor the old TV picture is until you see a HDTV.

I'd be curious if you could roughly quantify the difference in your group sizes from 100 yards and in shooting offhand? I'm talking ballpark here and not trying to hold you to laboratory conditions.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Couldn't tell ya. The only time I shoot my AR at paper is when I zero an optic, and that's from a supported position. Zeroed my Aimpoint a couple years ago and that was that.

I practice with my AR on steel at the Plinking range at our Club. This gives me left/right up/down transitions at 60 and 100yds. I can tell you from the time I acquire the target till bang is faster, and followup shots at the same target are faster, and it's a lot easier not to miss . Same at 200yds.

If had to stand in front of a piece of paper and agonize over precision groups with my AR I'd just toss it out in the woods and leave it there.

That looks like great fun, Phil. One thing I miss from my work days are the old kill houses and pepper popper setups we had. (I'm trying to convince my buddy that I'll share half the cost of putting some pepper poppers on his property for us to play with.) Of course, the mandatory gas drills were less than fun.

In Miami and on Key Biscayne we often had access to old luxury hotels which were going to be demolished for live fire drills. On one occasion our SRT drilled with the SEALS at one of them. They made an amphibious landing, (we didn't), but we joined them for the entry once they came up the beach. Those boys were a lot of fun both there and out in Marana, AZ where I got to spend a little time with them as well.

It was great to learn different styles of breaching doors and clearing rooms from SEALs, SAS, GSG-9 and state land local. Some did dynamic entries, others the "snake" etc. Various ways of engaging threats too.
Of course, military units could do things that civilian law enforcement teams could only dream of.

Occasionally we'd use an old cement factory out in the Everglades to ambush each other with live fire drills using some form of wax bullets. (That stung like hell when they hit you in an exposed area.) I got to "wax" one of the SEAL trainers and when he made a big deal about it I told him it was everyday stuff for guys from Brooklyn.

Gonna have to work on setting something up to keep the juices flowing on David's property. We don't have tons of clear area protected by the berm but it can still be made interesting over time, I think.

See how I deftly deflected the discussion of triggers?

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I shot this group at 50 yards with a stock GI trigger:



That's while using a PA Advanced Microdot.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Way to go covering my six!

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I have built a few, bought already built and have used BCM parts and have no complaints. I often use some of their parts for upgrades. But, I've gotten lazy in my old age and prefer to buy what I want as a complete unit. That and having a warrantee goes a long way.

I've dealt with BCM a few times along with Daniel Defense. I've found both to be high quality, extremely well built and very reliable weapon systems. Both a bit pricey, but not "entry level" weapons by any means either (I tend to lean a bit more towards the DD's). Over all, I do prefer mid and rifle length gas systems over the carbine length. One of the many reasons I added both those brands to my collection.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

And using it with the flip to side magnifier doesn't bother anything either.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Thanks for testing, Max. Appreciate the info.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I've always had something going and a couple irons in the fire. Being retired ain't easy, but now that I'm back up and fairly mobile again I've got plenty of time to play and plenty of toys to play with year round.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I highly recommend retirement. There are days when I miss some of the action, thrill of the investigation and chase but then I come to my senses when I remember the knuckleheads in the chain of command that couldn't find their asses with both hands.

Yep, it's much better to take my orders from the missus or our "sweet" little boxer / staffie mix, crack a beer and enjoy life the relatively stress-free life where the biggest problem on any given day is whether to buy a new trigger or not.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I agree. At times I too miss my younger days of high speed low drag when Uncle Sam was footin' the bill and there was a mission at hand. What I miss the most is that Team Sprit, the Brotherhood and not worrying if my "6" was covered. Hard to find that in todays world were everyone wants to start at the top or the (Waaaay too many) people that want everything handed to them for free.

Biggest worry I have now is if the fish are biting and the ice maker made enough ice over night.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

All I can say is "amen" to that, brother.

I took three voluntary downgrades during my 27 years working for uncle. The "sacrifices", such as they were, were so that I could move on to the positions and eventually locations that I wanted. (You never tell "Uncle" what you really want, you make sure you put that second or third so he can act like he did you a favor making a concession to one of your choices. )

I decided long ago I was a "field" agent and never wanted to be locked indoors and be subject to the interminable management conferences which ultimately just spun wheels ad nauseum.

Before I got out, my partner and I would look around and wonder how it was that nobody was willing to make sacrifices anymore and why did everyone expect to be handed a plum without having done anything to earn it.

Things have certainly changed. Funny how we're the generation of guys who say that now.

When I started as a young agent I can clearly remember a couple of the "older" guys sitting in a corner calculating what their benefits and pensions would be when they were eligible to retire...

...I walked over to another new guy like myself and told him that I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I'd have done the job for free. Needless to say, that attitude changed with the ensuing years.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

BTW, before we get in trouble with a certain Tennessean around these parts, what's it like using a RDS with a magnifier?

Is it a relatively clear sight picture or does all the glass introduce a bunch of distortion and noise?

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Might as well jump in with both feet. I have one on my (gulp) QD EoTech with an EoTech QD magnifier and don't have any problems. The magnifier (like most other brands) is adjustable so you get a very clear view through the RDS and it doesn't seem to distort the dot. It also works very well with other brands of RDS. It was listed at $550. which I thought was WAY over priced (the Buying the Name Brand thing game). I got mine waaay under that because I had a boatload of Cabela's points built up. It IS very well made, rugged as a tank, gathers "good light" early morning or at dusk and is clear as a bell though. I bought the Eotec Magnifier because I also couldn't find another magnifier that would match my Eotech Quick Detach sights height properly. Solid mount on the rail was fine with other brand magnifiers, but I WANTED a QD mount.

You need to be careful with magnifiers. There is some real junk out there and some waaay over priced ones to waist your money on. I've had reasonable luck with Vortex and some of the older sightmarks. I wouldn't go over 3X for power. Anything over 3X on a RDS is getting a bit overboard, clarity starts to suffer, so you might as well go for an actual scope then. I'd also recommend a flip to side mount.

Looks like magnifies have gotten popular, the prices have gone up considerably from what I've seen.

Did I need it ? No. Do I need a RDS, not really. Being I can keep em all in a 5 gallon bucket all day with iron sights at 300 yards, I could live with out a scope too. But life's short and I plan on enjoying it. The only sure thing, when I die and IF my wife gets a "new" boyfriend, he's going to have a LOT of fun toys to play with. But I'm sure the kids will make sure that don't happen.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Thanks, Max. I just happened to notice the magnifier on the LaRue site when I placed my order yesterday for the H-2.

I noticed that LaRue states their mounts are either a tad higher or lower, (depending on which mount is chosen), than the height of the Aimpoint Micro mounts but that they still work.

For the money I'd have expected the axis to mate up precisely, especially in light of the LaRue rep. Appears that this is one of those instances of "good enough" being, apparently, "good enough". I wouldn't know.

It's always nice to get the straight dope on how the equipment works together and more better to get the info from a trusted source, (that would be you), than someone with a financial motive.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

blues7. That's one of the bad things about ordering on line over having a good LGS (IF you don't have to drive a couple hours to get to it). Some items need a hands on to make sure they match.

I hate the "close enough" routine mixing and matching. With mine, the "close enough" had a dark shadow either on top or (no shims) a dark shadow on the bottom. For what we have to pay, I want right on the money perfect.

Close enough is only good for playing Horseshoes or hand grenades.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I'm not a fan of the flip-to-the-side magnifiers. I am a fan of magnified optics though. If you want magnified optics, either go fixed 3x or 4x or go to a 1-4x24 type of scope.

Allow me to elaborate:

Simpler is better. Consider hard what you want your rifle to do for you and put as little as possible on it to achieve those goals.

I've been to a few classes in the last couple years and I always see the same thing. On day one, there are a bunch of guys with a tremendous amount of gear. Tactical vests stuffed to the gills with straps, pockets, magazines, lights, gloves, glasses and extra ammo. On day two, most of that garbage is gone.

On the rifle itself, I see bi-pods, vertical forward grips, lights, flip magnifiers, lasers, dual mags, slings and God only knows what else. These things are heavy and holding them gets old really quick. Needless to say, the rifles become less adorned as the class progresses.

Flip magnifiers are just something else to get in the way. Most of the time you won't need them. When you do need them, you have to remember to flip them. Some are locked to the side and require manipulating a button to get them in place. This is bad if you're in a hurry.

Also, the good ones are expensive. Figure at least $500 for a decent flip magnifier.

Further yet, they will affect your POI. So, they have to be zeroed with the optic you'll be using. Just one more set up step that can be easily over looked.

Get a 1-4x24 scope and you'll save all that extra stuff. The scopes worth having will be good no matter the setting. Sure, they're heavier than just a red dot, but you do get the magnification when you need it without lots of fuss.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I still think light, sling and RDS pretty much covers it, (for my own particular set of needs), and the RDS is optional in my view.

Then again, I generally come from the school of thought that embraces the concept of...



...one riot, one ranger.

I totally agree, Doug, that simpler is better 99% of the time. Sort of like Occam's razor.

BTW, I mostly asked about the magnifier to get back on topic and avoid getting sent to the principal's office (since we were straying a bit off topic through nobody's fault but my own).

By and large, I haven't been a friend to the aftermarket segment of the firearms industry (except for tactical gear related to work). Prior to this year, I have never added anything to any of my firearms that was not OEM and related to a part that required replacing (outside of a sling).

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I hate slings. They just get in the way.

OK, if you have to carry your gun all day, you'll want a sling. Other than that, they suck.

In a defensive situation, they only serve to get caught on doorknobs and furniture. In the safe they seem to intentionally grab other guns on the way out.

For the high-speed-low-drag types, yes, they have value. If you ever run out of ammo and need to transition from rifle to handgun, OK. Unless civil war breaks out, that's not an issue for me.

The only reason I have any slings at all is because the training schools require them when you're carrying your gun around.

In fact, I have a single point sling that I'm probably going to drop in the trash. If you, or anyone else, wants it, the price of shipping will get it.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Very true. Keep it simple. Less to go wrong.

__________________
THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ