Another sigma guide rod thread, this time with a twist!!

Mike0589 · #1 03-01-2011, 09:24 PM

As i posted in the first thread i made, i was toying around with the idea of a wolf steel guide rod and recoil spring.

Well i was looking around on the froums here and the main concern seems to be the weak spring that they use, well i was doing some surfing on the net and found that someone had tore down and g***k and a sigma side by side, he said that is G19 rod fit right into the sigma. After that i found that LWD makes a SS guide rod with the same type of spring as O.E.M for $25, but the g***k spring is 17lbs vs the sigmas 18lb spring. So my question is, besides the theory of the O.E.M guide rod needing to flex do you think this could work?

As i said before this is my project gun for now, i intend to take it to the range a few times before i go useing it for EDC with the mods i have done.

Thanks in advance for the info!

Mike.

S&Wmainac · #2 03-01-2011, 10:24 PM

Ive heard it the guide rod needs to flex to but I dont understand why! Id like to get a steel rod for mine Ive had BAD experiance with plastic stuff

mlk18 · #3 03-02-2011, 12:18 AM

In the earlier days of poly framed guns the old guard just could not get over the poly guide rods too, so the aftermarket world decided to make a buck off those people and made steel guide rods for everything. Pretty soon guns were getting sent back to the factory for repairs and warranty work was not honored because the damage was from these steel guide rods. I remember seeing a cracked Gen 2 Glock and a cracked Kel-Tec P11 that were reportedly a direct result of the metal rod not flexing with the frame. Fast forward to today and these poly guns are better made as are the poly guide rods. There is no real justification for a metal guide rod other than the perception that it will last longer and/or not break as easy, and of course personal preference. Which is reason enough.

Mike0589 · #4 03-02-2011, 12:29 AM

Thank you for the reply, i must say, i did not hear of poly frames doing that with a steel guide rod untill now. I thought it was mostly theory untill now. As much as i hate to say it i may just hold off on it and pick up a new O.E.M guide rod.

I was hoping it would work out, but the last thing i want is a gun that does not shoot, i might as well buy a baseball bat then, haha.

Maybe i will just use that money to buy some nitesiters and some ammo.

Thanks again for the info, it is much appreciated.

leejack · #5 03-02-2011, 08:23 AM

There's nothing wrong with the factory guide rod.

I have no idea if the one you're talking about will work.

good luck

MDLNB · #6 03-02-2011, 08:52 AM

I would think that one reason for going to a SS rod would be a smoother recoil action. Just my thought on it. I am thinking of going that route eventually. I usually do a bit of Internet research before making any changes, and I have not found any problems so far. Other than a few that have said that the springs were not as good. I am still looking for evidence or examples of failure.

Sorry, and I don't mean any disrespect, but saying that the stock rod and spring works fine, doesn't quite answer his question. The stock front sight works fine also but I have noticed that even the "purists" on here showed interest in changing theirs.

Mike0589 · #7 03-02-2011, 02:52 PM

Thank you both for the input. I don't really have a problem with the factory guide rod, mine is just a bit chewed up and i thought for the money this was worth checking out.

As far as the spring goes, they claim it is flatwound just like the stock spring. The only thing holding me back at this point is the possibility of the frame cracking.

Random question, would going to a 19-20lb spring help to remedy the possibility of the frame cracking? I'm just tossing random idea's out there at this point.

MDLNB · #8 03-02-2011, 05:43 PM

Perhaps the flatwound spring works well for the Sigma. I am kind of puzzled that Sigmas are unique in that they can't use a typical spring. I have shot many weapons in my day and my sigma is the only one that I can remember that has to have a flatwound spring for the recoil rod. Have you ever heard of anyone having problems with a recoil spring primarily because it was NOT flatwound? Is it because the sigma has a plastic frame, that this makes a difference?

I was kind of under the impression that they made the guide rod out of plastic because of the weight thing. I figured that they made anything they could get away with, out of plastic.

Regarding the heavier spring, I recently put a heavy recoil spring in my LCP. My reasoning was that since I tend to fire hot loads in it, the heavier spring would cause less wear and tear on the slide. If I discover different, I can put the old spring back. By the way, my LCP has a steel guide rod and does not have a flatwound spring.

Mike0589 · #9 03-03-2011, 02:08 PM

I can't say i know much about recoil spring type. (flatwound, ect.) I just know how a recoil spring works, lol. I'm just kind of shocked i found an O.E.M type spring for it. I'm still undecided on if i want to chance it or not. I would LOVE to have a SS guide rod in the sigma if it worked, but i don't want it to fall apart in my hands either, lol.

Well either way a buddy of mine said he is going to try and stop over in the next couple of days and let me try his old G19 spring/rod in the sigma to see if it for sure fits. so i will give you guys an update on that as well. Besides, i have not checked out his new M&P .40 and i'm dieing to see it!

colt3374 · #10 03-16-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDLNB

I would think that one reason for going to a SS rod would be a smoother recoil action. Just my thought on it. I am thinking of going that route eventually. I usually do a bit of Internet research before making any changes, and I have not found any problems so far. Other than a few that have said that the springs were not as good. I am still looking for evidence or examples of failure.

Sorry, and I don't mean any disrespect, but saying that the stock rod and spring works fine, doesn't quite answer his question. The stock front sight works fine also but I have noticed that even the "purists" on here showed interest in changing theirs.

I'll end up changing my front sight, due to the fact that it's already loose, abeit, slightly. The next range session could prove fatal for the front sight. Thought, sight falls off, I retain it, clean up the melted plastic that was used as a fastener, reinstall and use a small amount of JB weld to keep in place. Bad idea, if so, why? Thanks!

Jknox87 · #11 03-17-2011, 06:35 AM

If putting a SSguide rod in the Sigma could be harmful to the frame. Then I'm confused on how it obviously works for the m&P's. Just food for thought

Mike0589 · #12 03-17-2011, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jknox87

If putting a SSguide rod in the Sigma could be harmful to the frame. Then I'm confused on how it obviously works for the m&P's. Just food for thought

I was just thinking that myself, as a matter of fact my buddy brought his M&P .40 over yesterday. Very nice gun!

I did not know they had an SS rod, metal mags, ect. Not a bad gun at all, i can see why a lot of people love them.

I'm still on the fence about getting the guide rod or not, i think i may end up doing it, if i do it will be a month or two though, i will be sure to post it up, no matter what the outcome.

MDLNB · #13 03-17-2011, 01:37 PM

I am interested in your results. I too would like to obtain a stainless steel guide rod. It seems to me that there would be a certain amount of reduced friction. Please do update us after you change yours out.

Mike0589 · #14 03-17-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDLNB

I am interested in your results. I too would like to obtain a stainless steel guide rod. It seems to me that there would be a certain amount of reduced friction. Please do update us after you change yours out.

Will do! It may be a while before i end up making the purchase but when i do i will be sure to give you all an update.

Thank again to everyone for the info and input!

If anyone still has any info or input i would be more then happy to hear what everyone has to say.

colt3374 · #15 03-17-2011, 03:39 PM

Are we talking about using a Wolf system?

Mike0589 · #16 03-17-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colt3374

Are we talking about using a Wolf system?

I thought about it untill i seen that LWD has what seems to be a better system for around the same price.

I was going to get the LWD SS guide rod, it comes with a 17lb spring, so i was also going to get an ISMI 18lb spring to go with it.

colt3374 · #17 03-18-2011, 02:18 AM

Can I put a Glock, OEM Guide Rod, from a G23 into my 40ve?

John@JCDLESales · #18 03-18-2011, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colt3374

Can I put a Glock, OEM Guide Rod, from a G23 into my 40ve?

The only way to know is to try it and then do say 500 Rds. and see if it functions and you'll have a really good idea of any unusual wear on your way to 500. For those really worried about high round count and wear I would just buy another Stock Sigma Rod/Spring setup and switch them out every other range trip. That way you always have a proven backup, No?

TDR911 · #19 03-18-2011, 08:43 AM

I have a Glock 17, 9mm with 17,000 + rounds and have been running a stainless guide rod from the beginning. WalMart white box ammo for the most. This gun is a testing unit that I test various lasers and lights for failure. It is also used for IDPA shoots and CQC classes and training as well.

This being said the steel guide rod will not harm a polymer frame.

As for the Sigma Wolff sell a Sigma steel guide rod with the factory weight spring. I would purchase that instead of trying to put a Glock rod/spring in your weapon. As for exchangability ?? I would have to measure all the dimensions and spring tension.

Mike0589 · #20 03-18-2011, 12:19 PM

Thank you all for the input, i'm glad to hear someone else say that they have a high round in thier polymer frame handgun with a steel guide rod.

@Colt: LWD SS guide rods come with a 17lb spring, the sigmas should have an 18lb spring, aside from the they "should" be the same. I have found a couple people that say they have taken thier 4'' 2nd and 3th G***k's apart along with thier sigma and tryed to swap parts. I have heard that the guide rod fits no problem, they are the same rod, take that with a grain of salt though, i did see it on the internet after all, lol.

colt3374 · #21 03-18-2011, 01:05 PM

I have the g23 OEM guide rod and spring, I put it into the Sigma and will be test firing shortly. Dummy me, should have switched out the steel rod and spring, and put back the OEM, when I traded in the g***k.

Mike0589 · #22 03-18-2011, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colt3374

I have the g23 OEM guide rod and spring, I put it into the Sigma and will be test firing shortly. Dummy me, should have switched out the steel rod and spring, and put back the OEM, when I traded in the g***k.

Cool deal, i'm dieing to see how she does!

Ouch, i hate it when i forget about stuff like that, lol.

colt3374 · #23 03-22-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike0589

Cool deal, i'm dieing to she how she does!

Ouch, i hate it when i forget about stuff like that, lol.

Shot 100 rds of frangible ammo through the 40ve today. As I suspected it performed flawlessly again. It may be my imagination, or I'm just getting aquainted with the pistol, but after replacing the S&W OEM rod and spring, with the g***k 23, OEM rod and spring, I found myself to be more accurate and suspiciously, felt less recoil. Not too sure what the effect of the swap out is, but good, cold day at the range in New England.
This gun continues to impress me!! And oh, the front sight is still intact

11shooter · #24 03-22-2011, 05:21 PM

I got tired of having to walk into the next county (figuratively speaking) to pick up my brass. I bought a new recoil spring assembly for my Smith and Wesson 9VE. It came in today, and -- WOW! What a difference it made!

Less felt recoil
Quicker follow-up shots
Brass spread out neatly about 5 to 8 feet behind me
Harder to rack the slide

My gun is seven years old, with about 4,000 rounds fired through it (mostly Winchester USA "White Box"). With the old spring I didn't have any feeding problems, or any other problem for that matter. I just noticed that my gun would throw the spent brass about 25 - 30 feet. Even though my original spring passed all of the little "tests" I read about on the internet, it is obviously much weaker than the new one. The new spring seems to enjoy every kind of ammo, from extra lite reloads to +P defense stuff.

I highly recommend a new recoil spring assembly to breath new life into your action. It cost about $13 including shipping.

Mike0589 · #25 03-22-2011, 05:29 PM

Very nice, i'm glad to hear these results! I'm thinking i will pick up a new guide rod when i have a few extra bucks to blow.

debent55 · #26 04-01-2011, 10:53 PM

I have 3 sigma's. 9,40,357. 9 and 40 are ve models. The 40 was my first polymer framed gun. I shot 1K rnds. of wwwb thru it to break it in and aquire some brass. I worked up to the maximum load of Longshot powder with a 155 gr. jhp bullet. This was a published max load in one of the hodgden load books. Vel was in excess of 1350 fps. Hodgden no longer recomends this high of a load using longshot. I went to a wolf spring and a steel guide rod which I purchased from midway. The rod was listed for the early version of the sigma, the "F" model if I remember correctly. I have had no problems using the guide rod in the sigma.
just my .02
thx
Don

colt3374 · #27 04-03-2011, 02:03 AM

Thanks Don!!

Mike0589 · #28 04-03-2011, 02:12 AM

Nice, glad to hear it worked out for you as well! Thank you sir.

smeezy · #29 12-12-2011, 06:30 PM

just received a new Wolff guide rod and spring for my SW9VE..excited to see how it feels...I heard alot of good things..Thanks

Coop de Ville · #30 12-17-2011, 06:47 PM

FYI-

I broke the frame of my 40E years ago. I had purchased the gun new in 2000. I had replaced the guide rod with a steel guide rod from either Wolff or ISMI (can not recall which). It was a captured flat spring similar to the factory one, except that the guide rod was steel instead of plastic.

While at the range a few years later, after firing a shot, the slide went forward and slid right off the frame onto the range floor. Upon inspection, it was clear that the plastic portion of the frame that holds the locking bar/ slide lock had become weak and "crumbly" (for lack of a better term).

I shipped it off to S&W and they returned it with a brand new frame at no charge. I never reinstalled that guide rod and have run it stock ever since.

At the time, I may have had 500 rounds through it with the new spring before it broke.

There are other variables however, that may have contributed:

1. I believe I installed an extra power recoil spring rated at 22 lbs. I am not sure what the statndard weight is.

2. I used gunscrubber quite a bit during cleaning. I am not sure if this could have been a factor as well.

FWIW- thought you might like the info.

Best,

-Coop