Pig tail spring question

bitstream

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I took apart my trigger assembly last night and polished/buffed the two main metal pieces. It went well until I was reassembling and couldn't get the pig tail back on. It's hard to hold it compressed in place and push the pin back through.

Does anyone have a trick? I've heard it will run just fine without it, is that true? (is the reason people discovered this because they also couldn't get theirs back on?)


The trigger feels smoother now; the pull seems about the same. It doesn't have the "clicks" in it that it used to have. I definitely discovered some tooling marks from manufacturing that I have now buffed out. I started at 400 grit and worked up to 1600 grit and then put a metal buff polish on it.

I'd like to revisit the slot that the two pins ride in. This seems to be the most important spot, but I didn't have a way to get inside it other than to cut the sandpaper into thin strips, thread a strip thru the slot, and then run it back and forth. Anyone with a better idea?

It seems to work fine without the pig tail when I did a function check, but I'd feel better if I can get it back on.


special thanks to psyshack1 (I think he's a forum member) and his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwM5JI3woeI
 
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I made a short assembly pin that I use to hold it in place in the sear block, after locating it with a small punch. Then put everything together and push the assembly pin out with the stock pin.

People do a lot of stupid things because they don't know how to correctly disassemble and reassemble a firearm, but that isn't justification to just toss out the parts, whether it is a 1911 or a Sigma. The pigtail adds almost nothing to the trigger pull when installed correctly.
The sear block polishing is what smooths the trigger pull.
 
I made a short assembly pin that I use to hold it in place in the sear block, after locating it with a small punch. Then put everything together and push the assembly pin out with the stock pin.

People do a lot of stupid things because they don't know how to correctly disassemble and reassemble a firearm, but that isn't justification to just toss out the parts, whether it is a 1911 or a Sigma. The pigtail adds almost nothing to the trigger pull when installed correctly.
The sear block polishing is what smooths the trigger pull.

I gave up last night only because it was late (1am). I would prefer to get the pigtail back in and make everything 100% stock. I do not have plans to replace/remove any of the stock springs.

How much smaller diameter is the assembly pin? I injured my thumb the other day and couldn't push hard enough to hold it in place and tap the stock pin back in while holding the spring steady. I figured I'd either need a helper or a simple trick.
 
Ahhhhhhhhhhh............the old "if it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is" syndrome that afflicts the American Male. Closely related to the "If it ain't broke-you're not tryin' hard enough" syndrome of our Canadian brothers. :D
 
Ahhhhhhhhhhh............the old "if it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is" syndrome that afflicts the American Male. Closely related to the "If it ain't broke-you're not tryin' hard enough" syndrome of our Canadian brothers. :D

True (but in this case I had some definite "clicking" in the assembly that is now much, much better. I didn't change the mechanicals, nor the pull weight. I was just trying to remove the machine marks left from construction so the parts move smoothly without hangup as, assumedly, originally intended.)

When I disassembled it, the machine marks were plainly evident. S&W should try to do a little better job on the manufacturing line. Now the marks are nearly all gone and everything is smooth.
 
How much smaller diameter is the assembly pin?

Not critical. I used a piece of brass rod that is a loose fit and cut it so it can be in the sear block when you install the sear block into the frame. Easier to do than describe.
I use a small punch to lever the torsion spring ("pigtail") into line and get the assembly pin into the sear block before moving it to the frame. The punch is also handy when putting in the stock pin.
Pushing on a torsion spring with your fingers hurts!

ADDED: Assembly pins should be loose fit, smooth, and have rounded ends so they push through easily. They don't stay in the gun, so they don't fit like the factory pin.

I'd like to revisit the slot that the two pins ride in. This seems to be the most important spot, but I didn't have a way to get inside it other than to cut the sandpaper into thin strips, thread a strip thru the slot, and then run it back and forth. Anyone with a better idea?
I use a small flat gunsmith file to avoid rounding everything.
 
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I'd like to revisit the slot that the two pins ride in. This seems to be the most important spot, but I didn't have a way to get inside it other than to cut the sandpaper into thin strips, thread a strip thru the slot, and then run it back and forth. Anyone with a better idea?

The trigger pull weight of a gun, particularly a double-action (I'm not going to get into the debate about "it's not double action because it doesn't have a hammer"), is dependent on two things: friction and springs.

The design of the gun generally assumes that friction will go to near zero with use and then the springs will be the main factor. You can either put one or two thousand rounds through it, or you can mimic what that does and enjoy good shooting right away.

The SW40VE is well-designed, but rather cheaply manufactured, which means the out of the box heavy trigger-pull is mostly caused by friction, and I think that posters who are happy with the trigger out of the box probably got a smoother specimen than I did.

I've looked at the internet videos and seen that they mostly involve doing something with the springs. If the main problem is friction, then messing with the springs is breaking something that isn't broken, instead of fixing what is broken. I've got guns that are over 100 years old and still in good working condition, ball-point pen springs are not built to last 100 years in a gun.

The problem is not in the trigger but in the lower sear mechanism. The "gritty" feeling comes from there, as does a lot of the friction.

The sear in any gun is two metal surfaces like blocks that face each other under spring pressure when the gun is cocked and the trigger causes them to slide apart, abruptly releasing the hammer, or in this case, the striker. Technically the sear is the single part that holds back the hammer (or, in the Sigma, the striker tang) but I'm using "upper" and "lower" here for clarity.

In the SW40VE the lower sear and sear housing are located in the rear of the frame. The lower sear is a cam which, when connected to the trigger by a simple metal link, will move rearward and downward, thus cocking the striker and then releasing it through a single trigger pull. The upper sear, or striker tang, is in the slide, connected to the striker.

The "grittiness" is caused by the fact that slot in the lower sear has been roughly machined, causing the bar that pushes the lower sear rearward to "chatter" through the machining marks. Also, the lower sear has an "S" shaped curve at the rear which interacts with a plastic ramp in the sear housing to drive the cam downward as it proceeds rearward. Again, rough machining marks here cause friction. The plastic is not the smoothest it could be, due to mold marks.

Finally, the surfaces of both the upper sear (attached to the striker in the slide) and the lower sear are roughly machined surfaces, causing friction.

So the real "trigger fix" is:

1. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the slot inside of the cam that is the lower sear (one poster said he took most of the fuzz off a Q-tip and put it in a dremel chuck, using metal polish to polish the slot at a very low speed.)

2. Smooth and polish the part of the lower sear cam that contacts the plastic sear housing as it moves rearward

3. Smooth and polish the mold marks on the plastic sear housing that contact the sear cam

4. Smooth and polish the contact surface (which contacts the upper sear) of the lower sear

5. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the upper sear (which contacts the lower sear) (you need to remove the striker from the slide to do this)

Some purists will object to 4 and 5, saying that the sear will be rounded and less crisp. But if you carefully polish the surfaces with the flat stick, that will be minimal. And a crisp sear is much more important and noticable in a single action than a double action.

WARNING: Do not use a power tool for these steps! It is too easy to remove too much metal.

I used a flat metal fingernail file from Revlon to get the machine marks out (thanks to my wife who gave it to me a long while back). It fits in the slot. I would say that the rough side is about 400 grit and the smooth is about 500.

Then I used a 600 grit "Angle Cut Sanding Stick" (works better when wet) from www.stevenshobby.com to polish the surfaces mentioned.

You need a jeweler's loupe or some other 10X magnifier to look at the original condition and to see when you have polished enough.

Finally, I lubed all contact surfaces (including the side of the sear housing that contacts the sear) with a Hob-E-Lube dry graphite and molybdenum (HL651). Look for a hobby store that sells electric trains, for this stuff. I like dry lubes or Rem-oil in guns because neither tend to collect grit.

I would say the trigger pull is now smooth and comparable to a Glock 23 or the new S&W SD (which has a redesigned rotating sear mechanism that has its own issues.) Not as good as a S&W M&P.45, which I have also fired. The trigger pull weight breaks at 8 lbs.
 
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Zebra,
Nice writeup, thanks for sharing this detailed process.
 
There shouldn't be that much tension really.
I took mine out for a while, but recently put it back in.
Didn't have any trouble, except I dropped the spring
the first time I tried it.. But don't recall there being
much tension. I decided to put mine back in to avoid
any possible reset issues. I really don't notice much
difference with it in or out, so might as well leave it in.
If I remember right, I used a small screwdriver to hold and
move the spring to get it into position for the pin.
Pretty much a piece of cake when I did it. Maybe I got lucky..
Maybe I put it back wrong, but I don't think so as I used the original
gouge mark the spring leg had put on the plastic part to tell which
way the spring leg went. It all seems normal after I got it back together.
 
UPDATE: I got the pig tail installed again (thanks to OKFC05 for the tip on the assembly pin) tonight.

I also revisited the slot and worked it really good up to 1600 grit. Everything gleams now is feels as smooth as glass. After reassembly, the action has no "chatters" or "clicks" anymore. It just moves smoothly. I am not sure if the pull weight has changed any, if it changed, it's not much. I wasn't out to reduce the pull weight, so that's fine. The main thing is that it now is very smooth, which is what I wanted and all the parts are now back in place.

If anyone wants to take apart their gun, I highly suggest they do what I did and take a bunch of digital pics with their camera from every angle and at each step from various angles. Those pics were instrumental in getting it back together right. I wasn't sure a couple of times and had to refer to the pics. It passed function check and I've dry fired it about 50 times perfectly, so I'm pretty certain it's all back correctly and working.

Thanks to all with their ideas and help!!!
 
i still have yet to understand why people remove the larger outer spring or both springs and replace it with a spring from a pen, or remove the pigtail spring?

those springs have nothing to do with the weight you feel when you pull the trigger.

S&W spent a lot of time and money designing thier firearms i'd keep all factory springs in.
 
i still have yet to understand why people remove the larger outer spring or both springs and replace it with a spring from a pen, or remove the pigtail spring?

those springs have nothing to do with the weight you feel when you pull the trigger.

S&W spent a lot of time and money designing thier firearms i'd keep all factory springs in.

That's why I put everything back stock. My project goal was achieved; to remove any/all rough spots in the mechanism to stop the "clicks" I was feeling during the trigger stroke. Every internal part is now smooth as glass and the trigger stroke is clean and smooth. The weight of the trigger pull is unchanged as far as I can tell (I don't have a measurement device for that). Since all the stock parts are back in their original places, I don't believe I changed anything that could cause a problem.

I agree with you, unless it's a gun you do not intend on using for self defense, I wouldn't mod it with springs from a ball point pen. Now, if it was just for plinking, etc., then maybe.
 
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