Setback Issue--Please Educate Me

BTCat

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All, I have been reading threads and ran across some discussion of the .40 S&W being susceptible to setback issues. Can someone take the time to educate this newbie. What exactly is this? How is it prevented, etc.? Other than a .380 Bersa I have had for several years, I am new to the auto world. I bought my SD40VE new several weeks ago. 50 rounds through and waiting for more ammo :(
 
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Maybe trigger reset? SWVE's can have reset issues when people remove springs. SDVE's and SWVE's tend to not have issues when in stock form. Something that some people don't realize is with these guns the trigger has to come all the way forward for the trigger to reset. Some tend to forget this when shooting.

If you can post some specific threads maybe we can address the issue a little deeper.
 
All, I have been reading threads and ran across some discussion of the .40 S&W being susceptible to setback issues. Can someone take the time to educate this newbie. What exactly is this? How is it prevented, etc.? Other than a .380 Bersa I have had for several years, I am new to the auto world. I bought my SD40VE new several weeks ago. 50 rounds through and waiting for more ammo :(

Setback is simply this: The bullet (projectile) gets shoved back further into the case as a result of rechambering. Pressure is determined by a number of factors, but the amount of powder space in the casing is an important factor. The less room in the case, the higher the pressure. Pressure can go up very dramatically.

This can happen with any auto pistol ammo, not just .40 S&W.

It is, therefore, very important that you not chamber the same round over and over.

This is a problem for those folks who feel the strange need to unload and reload their carry pistol daily. That is sort of like emptying your gas tank in your car each day and refilling it each morning.

Better procedure is to unholster and store in a vault.

Always inspect ammo by standing them upright on a flat surface to make sure none are shorter than others. Damaged ammo must be safely discarded. Overall length can be measured as well, but it takes longer.

It is the repeated rechambering that causes the issue. Simply do not do it. Shooting ammo with bullets that have been pushed back too far in the case can yield dramatic and sometimes dangerous results.
 
Setback is simply this: The bullet (projectile) gets shoved back further into the case as a result of rechambering. Pressure is determined by a number of factors, but the amount of powder space in the casing is an important factor. The less room in the case, the higher the pressure. Pressure can go up very dramatically.

This can happen with any auto pistol ammo, not just .40 S&W.

It is, therefore, very important that you not chamber the same round over and over.

This is a problem for those folks who feel the strange need to unload and reload their carry pistol daily. That is sort of like emptying your gas tank in your car each day and refilling it each morning.

Better procedure is to unholster and store in a vault.

Always inspect ammo by standing them upright on a flat surface to make sure none are shorter than others. Damaged ammo must be safely discarded. Overall length can be measured as well, but it takes longer.

It is the repeated rechambering that causes the issue. Simply do not do it. Shooting ammo with bullets that have been pushed back too far in the case can yield dramatic and sometimes dangerous results.

Thanks for the detailed reply. The thread that brought this to my attention is:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/296035-my-shield-went-boom.html

The fact that they imply this is a particularly dangerous senario with the .40 surely got my attention. I doubt I will be doing much rechambering, but it is very good to know about and watch for.
 
I ride the slide home with my hand somewhat when chambering a round from the mag.

I don't let it slam home.

Reduces setback on a cartridge.

3
 
I would say that's an ammo issue. The bullet shouldn't set back unless you are doing something you shouldn't with it. I'd say cheep, low quality control ammo, or it didn't have a good crimp in the loading process.
 
Riding a slide home is a sure invitation to a jam with many semi auto pistols. It's far better to slingshot the slide and basically duplicate how the slide cycles in normal operation.

IMO setback problems are normally an issue with the basic design of the pistol. It's caused by the bullet basically getting hammered into the casing as it feeds into the chamber and some feed ramp/bullet profile combinations can produce more "hammering" than others. This means that it is very advisable for you to have some method of measuring the overall length of your cartridge before and after chambering. Harbor Freight sells a cheap digital caliper that works quite well for between 20 and 35 dollars depending on if it's on sale and it's a good addition to anyone's tool kit.

Chamber the same round 10 or 15 times and compare the length at the end of this to the original starting length. If you don't see any change in length you really don't have much need to be concerned about setback with this PARTICULAR CARTRIDGE. Note, a different make or even bullet weight may produce a different result, so you need to test for this any time you change to a different ammunition.

If you see a change in the 0.02 inch or greater range after 10 loadings it means that you may need to take steps to accommodate the setback you combination is producing. Step one is to determine that the setback isn't excessive with one single chambering. Personally I would consider more than 0.010 inch as excessive but this is an admittedly arbitrary standard. IMO a casing with 0.010 inch of setback is still perfectly safe to fire and anymore than that starts to make me nervous. Assuming you don't see much setback with one single chambering it means that you need to minimize any repeated reloadings of a cartridge so that you'll never exceed a safe level of setback. Normally this is done by either moving the position of that previously chambered cartridge to the bottom of the magazine stack or a box reserved for range practice. I myself would recommend putting any chambered rounds with a small amount of setback into a box for range practice. It's a good idea to practice with your carry ammunition and doing this insures that you won't work through that stack in the magazine and start rechambering a previously set back round.

BTW, not all pistols or ammunitions will produce setback. I've checked and found that Speer Gold Dots won't set back in my Sig P239 no matter how many times I rechamber them. However, even knowing this I generally don't unload my P239 unless I'm using it at the range.
 
The 2013 Guns & Ammo Handguns Annual has a good article on bullet setback.. It should be at your newstand now if you want to check it out. I found a copy at the grocery magazine rack today. It compares 12 different loads each of 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP.

Best Regards,
ADP3
 
I have a good set of calipers. I'll do some checks tomorrow if I have some time. Good information to know and build on. Thanks to all of you, especially shawn mccarver and scooter123 for the detailed info. ADP3, I'll look for the G&A article.

I have a couple of brands of .40 right now -- Federal Hydra-Shok 135 and Winchester FMJ 180. I'll let you know how they test out.
 
Reason why people think its worse for a .40 is because way more pressure and hotter load with .40 caliber. But that's the same as saying a fat person is going to fall harder. 40's aren't more prone unless you physically introduce the "setback" round into the chamber.

As others mentioned you can avoid that problem by not rechambering the same round over and over. Which is racking the slide to load a round, then pulling back slide to eject same round, then placing same round back on top of mag, and then sooner or later repeating the same process.

Do that enough times with the same round and every time the round seats and action closes you will push the bullet further back into the casing. Push that bullet back enough and the propellant won't be able to project the bullet when it actually comes time to strike the primer and the whole round will explode in the chamber (hence the shield going kaboom). This will most definitely destroy your gun and do some major damage to your hand if not more.

So as long as you avoid rechambering constantly with the same round, you can virtually rule out setback as a possible issue you may come across.
 
Chambered 3 differant rounds

I chambered 3 different rounds about 6 times each today just to see -- Winchester FMJ 180, Federal Hydro Shok 135 and Monarch (Academy) FMJ 180. I have a set of professional grade calipers. Honestly, there was no notable differance in OAL after multiple rechambering. I didn't ride the slide. I let it slingshot back. Eased my mind a bit. I don't plan to use reloads and I'm pretty comfortable with what I saw. I have no need to chamber and rechamber, so a non-issue, as far as I am concerned.

There is a ton of good information in this thread and in the M&P Kaboom thread that should be absorbed by the newbie. I've learned a lot following this issue.
 
How hard does it hit the ramp

Well, you have good advice here and I hate to put in a mixture of facts and opinions that might mess you up? I am always in some transitional stage between pistols, many years apart, often splitting hairs.

I have read that excessive setback (bullet pushed back into shell reducing overall length) can raise pressures and even blow up a gun. In a semi auto pistol that can mean a kaboom out the bottom. Allegedly it can be worse on ones hand if it is a polymer frame pistol than a steel frame pistol?

I have read that factory ammo is glued in, along with being tightly factory sized when shell was created.

I read somewhere, that american ammo manufactures guaranty only, that their semi auto cartridges can be chambered 3 times safely.

If you look at a reloading book, and compare the amount of a given brand of powder, for a 38 special verses a 9mm, you may notice how close it is. Then when you look at the pressure levels they are surprisingly different. (9mm is perhaps small so hands can fit around the grip?)

Yes the 38 special cartridge can be reloaded many times and can be neck sized only if desired. A loose grip on the bullet might only have the bullet move forward under recoil. Eventually the cylinder might not rotate. (light revolver with heavy load kicks back more vigorously - bullet should be snug).

But back to semi autos. The back of the bullet shell (case) has a primer and a primer flash hole in front of that. Basically the brass at the head is pretty thick. But if a person got wild polishing the feed ramp with an electric tool one could expose more shell and it could become dangerous.
(When barrel is out of pistol, drop a cartridge in it to check how it looks - or remove the magazine on a loaded pistol and shine a flashlight up inside)

If one was to reload a shell excessive numbers of times (resize it back down many times) the flexing can make the shell more dangerous to such blowout problems than before.

Now I dearly love my many S&W revolvers. I also love my 9mm and .22 rimfire semi-autos. My 1911 colt 45 long ago was wonderful but did not feel right in my hand. And for me the thumb safety was slow.

My 40 cal Glock feels wonderful in my hand. Unfortunately the extractor is so tight the shells do not slide easily up under it like my glock 9mm. When the 40 was new the shells moving up under the extractor harshly, delayed the shells upward movement and the front of the cartridge hit the feed ramp hard. Eventually I took the barrel out and repeatedly pushed a cartridge under the extractor and repeatedly rotated it. All sharp areas got covered with a layer of brass and began working much better. (And does not void my warranty)
(The magazine spring is not at all weak, quite the contrary)

I have read that some models of pistols feed directly into the cylinder and others use a lot of the feed ramp. I notice my 22 buck mark feeds directly in and has a great magazine follower length, for a stable angle. My glock 9mm also feeds in very well, almost perfect.

My 1911 45 had a very smooth extractor lip and the shell fed in as slow as you want to release the slide. In my next pistol purchase (probably a S&W 45) I will be looking closely at the extractor design and the magazine follower front to back stability (how tall is the follower and not excessively loose).

This will be a problem because gun stores do not let one take apart pistols. They also do not let one put old empty shells up under extractors.

And I am not motivated enough to bother buying various brands of ammo to measure the depth of the groove the extractor fits in - in 45 and 40 cal.

(I would hate to polish the extractor edge of my glock and then find some brands of ammo are not gripped well, because I removed excessive metal). (Highly unlikely because it moves quite a bit when shell is shoved under it).

(Because the extractor is now the loaded chamber indicator, they may have added metal?)

Anyway I like the S&W viewing port, as a better way to check for loaded chamber.
 
On my carry ammo, I take a ultra fine point sharpie (I use red or black but about any color will work). Draw a circle around the bullet where it meets the case. Load in magazine.

Anytime you unload and are going to chamber a new round, just glance at the line. If you can see it, the bullet hasn't moved. if it's gone, might want to figure out why. I have yet to NOT see the original thin line I've drawn on any of my carry ammo.
 
I rotate the chambered round in my carry magazine...the sharpie is a good idea. But I also shoot my carry mag once a month, just to freshen it up with a new stack of SD rounds. I like to know my carry rounds go the same places my target ammo does.
Mental check point is nothing else...:)
 
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