I know if you were hired after Jan 1st, 1994 you cannot carry a revolver as a duty weapon in the NYPD. If is also my understanding that even if you were carrying a revolver prior to the above date and later qualified with an auto, you cannot go back to carrying the revolver as a duty weapon.

My question is if you were to be hired by the NYPD at present can you carry a revolver as an off-duty weapon even though your duty weapon is an auto? Or is the approved off-duty revolvers on the list only for the guys carrying revolvers on duty?

Thanks

Nope. Officers are no longer able to buy a revolver for off duty carry, and that includes an officer hired 20 years ago. The job stopped authorizing them about 10 years ago. If you didn't own one by that date, the door was closed for any future guns. You can buy whatever you want, but you are prohibited from carrying it as an off duty piece. in fact, if you use ANY weapon other than your dept approved weapons for anything other than recreational use, you will be screwed. So you can't leave your 9MM Glock in your locker and sleep with a .357 next to your bed. if you use that gun, even in a lawful shooting, you will not be indeminifed, and that goes for using dept authorized ammo in a different gun.

And many guys hired and trained with the semi auto carried a revolver off duty. They were allowed to do that for a few years until the job phased out off duty revolvers.

If you were qualified with an auto and were authorized to carry a revolver you could still carry the revolver as a backup as long as you quailified with it. As a detective I was not on patrol, I qualified with my Glock 19, S&W Model 10 (original service revolver) and my S&W Model 36. Those 3 guns were always considered my authorized firearms. Technicaly, if I were put in uniform I could carry my Model 10 if I so desired.

If you were hired today you would not be permitted to carry a revolver under regular circumstances. There is a way you could, but this being a public forum, I'd rather not go on record with the answer. But it could be done.

Ultra45...........

Thanks for the response! It's not for me (The CT State Police is my home) but I have a buddy who looks like is getting on with NYPD and is hell-bent on carrying his 642-1 as a back-up/off-duty piece....I'll have to hit you for that "back door" process if he deff. makes it on.

You still active or retired?

Thanks Again,
Sean

I'll spill the beans: if he/she is allergic to tupperware . . .

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Almost anything is possible with the right hook.

Left uppercut no good?

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Wow ... NY = FAIL.

Can't wait to get back home to the midwest....

Never gonna happen. Even IF he was allowed to carry a revolver, the 642 was never authorized. Getting a member of the service authorized to carry a non-dept issued gun is very hard (undercover guys will be allowed to do it since they are undercover. Other than the Glock, the other 2 service weapons are easily identified as NYPD guns. Not too many people chhose to carry double action only S& 5946's or SIG 226's. Even then, there is a whole procedure to follow and nobody is going to do that just because a rookie really likes his 642). I recall wanting to carry the 642 when we authorized the all steel 640. Was told emphatically "Hell no, kid"

I always find it strange how one department permits the use of a specific brand/model firearm or ammo caliber size for on duty vs. off duty. Or, when compared to another department in the same state it may not matter. Luckily for me, per HR218 I can switch back and forth from revolver to auto, any make/model. However, I do have to qualify with both to be permitted the switch.

If one had a carry permit, could a department still restrict off-duty carry to a department authorized weapon as a condition of employment?

Not many cops hired by the NYPD are in possesion of a carry permit in NY, since generally only retired cops and hooked up celebrities get one. If you DO have a permit, it is void once you are hired, since your shield and ID card ARE permits. And yes, a dept can resrict their officers to whatever they want to. When you take the oath, you lose your rights to choose your carry weapon within the NYPD.

Among many other lost rights.

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Do we even have rights anymore?

MTS Cop, did they straighten out the problems with the M&P9c at the range?

I don't know. Last I heard was that it would make the approved list at the start of the new year, but that was a few months ago. I think the range re-opens for quals in a few weeks, I'll let you guys know if I hear anything new.

That is total B.S. Sounds like a whole bunch of politics are at play. Nothing against auto's as I have quite a few myself! But if a man "A POLICE OFFICER" proves he is proficient with a revolver as his back up, then he should damn sure be allowed to carry it I think! I personally Love wheel guns, and would be furious if told I couldn't carry one if I so desired. You know I have always said that you should shoot whatever weapon feels most comfortable to you. Wheel Guns Are Real Guns. I see no reason why they should exclude a weapon for no reason. I understand that departments of a certain size should have some sort of standard but that seems a bit excessive. it's not as if he is asking to carry a blunderbuss! Gimme a break!

1997 was the last year any new recruits were trained and qualified to carry an off-duty DAO revolver. The S&W 640 was standard until the 640-1 was introduced in the Magnum frame.

Then the City told S&W to produce the magnum frame in .38 only. The birth of the 640-2. I believe this is the only model made specifically for the NYPD. Meaning no 640-2 revolvers were made for the regular commercial market.

Anyone hired after 1997, are not authorized to carry a revolver for off-duty. But...
If you still have it, and you qualify once a year with it, you can.

HTH

Gotta disagree with Lex, the 640-2 was offered by Smith in their catalog for one year, 1999 if memory serves correctly.

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I shoot, therefore I am.

Thank goodness for Alabama, if you qualify with it you can carry it !

My department does place some limits on the chamberings we are allowed to carry off-duty (nothing smaller than .380 ACP, nothing bigger than .45 Colt) and the types of ammunition allowed, but we are not nearly as limited as NYPD. My on-duty BUG is a 37-2 Airweight and my primary off-duty is a Ruger SP101. One could say that I like revolvers. I'm glad I am not prohibited from carrying them.

So, what are NYPDs current duty and off-duty weapons? I know the duty guns were the Glock 19, S&W 5946, and SIG 226 DAO, but I understand that has changed somewhat, I never knew what exactly was authorized for off-duty/backup.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Off topic but does NYPD use 9mm for their duty guns?

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

The current authorized duty guns are: Smith & Wesson 5946, SIG Sauer P226 DAO, and Glock 19. The M&P 9 is going to replace the 5946 at some point in the near future.

The current authorized off duty guns are: Smith & Wesson 3914DAO and 3953, SIG Sauer P239 DAO and Glock 26. Again, the M&P 9c is in the works to replace the 3914 and 3953.

I'm not even going to get into what's grandfathered. There's a variety of Smith & Wesson and Ruger revolvers, Kahr K9s and Beretta 8000s.

Basically when a new weapon is introduced you aren't forced to adopt it because you do it at your own expense. If you were issued it and keep qualifying with it, you can keep carrying it.

MTS Cop, since the M&P 9 full size is a 17 shot weapon, will they modify/alter it to hold 15 like the other designs?

Marcus88.
The Current duty round 9mm is a GDHP 124 gr 9mm +P.

Thank you both.

I think that they have a narrow off-duty pick is because if officers start to carry what they want then the PD would have to buy ammo from .38s all the way to 10mm. It may be more cost effective due to the large amount off police officers that you have. But I could be wrong about this idea.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

That's a good question that I don't know the answer to. I can absolutely seeing them do that. Since the media portrays us as a bunch of trigger happy racists, I'd imagine them getting wind of us having higher capacity magazines would cause a ***** storm.

Plus it would be a pain in the *** on the firing line. The off duty quals are always a disater because you have guys with 5 shot revolvers, 9 shot S&Ws and 10 shot Glocks all trying to keep up to one pace. The service quals go much smoother because everyone has 15 rounds.

I'm curious to see how this turns out.

You just spilt the beans.....

In litigious NY, it's more of a training and liability issue, not to mention anti-gun public and political sentiment. It wasn't until the late 1980's, during the peak of the crack violence that speedloaders were authorized (when semi-autos weren't yet authorized either), and that was only because a cop got shot in the head DOA by a semi-auto armed thug while the cop was trying to reload from dump pouches.

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Damn Shame that it takes things like that for departments to start allowing their men, and women in uniform to arm themselves with the proper equipment. I have never been in Law Enforcement but it seems to me that due to legal liability they sometimes find themselves behind the curve with respect to matching the bad guy's! West Hollywood ring any bells??????? L.E.O.'s should be allowed to determine what they need to do their jobs effectively, and efficiently, not some idiot in the legal department! I am all for standards but it seems sometimes they can take it to far!

First, I appreciate you NYPD guys keeping this thread alive. Interesting stuff. I agree, it is always a training and liability issue. Training, ammo, armorers, etc are expensive. Insurance companies review agency practices, such as weapons and training (among many other things) and set rates, and make decisions on whether or not your agency is in compliance with accepted police practices. When an individual is deciding on firearms for their own protection, it is a relatively simple process...when I do it for 95 people, it is a PITA...when NYPD does it for 30,000, well, it is just a monumental task. I can't make 95 people happy, no way NYPD is gonna make 30,000 happy....
We issue handguns, rifles and shotguns. We have less lethal options. We have a policy that authorizes improved weapons if necessary. We ditched the stupid "use of force charts and ****" years ago, and simplified our Use of Force policy without that soft hands, hard hands stuff. As training needs rise, and budgets shrink, keeping everyone qualified and well equipped is more and more of a task.
One advantage NYPD has over an outfit like mine is that NYPD can put a LOT of people on a problem in a short period of time. Where we work, backup might be working a crash on the other side of the county, and you might be alone for a LONG time before help arrives.

Judging from the authorized off duty guns, it wouldn't suprise me if they nixed the j-frames since they are the most easy to carry off duty and NY doesn't want off duty folk carrying.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Except for extremely rare cases, the j-frame will be aged out by officer retirements. There just won't be anyone authorized to carry them anymore after a certain number of years (too tired to do the math at the moment). But your sentiment is correct.

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You are correct: one of the key strengths of the NYPD is the ability to swarm officers onto a problem or into a problem area. That's one of the reasons why large scale events don't get out of control in NYC (for the most part). BTW, NYC is a self-insurer.

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Well for me, I'm out in Cupcake now; If I qualify on it I can carry it, but I tend to stay with my City training. Agency Servcie Sig P229 .40, and my 5 shot 640 .38s, but remember when there were only 10 rounds authorized to be carried in the 15 rnd mag?

It took an off-duty female cop carrying her 5 shot revolver, to engage a robbery taking place at her hair salon in Brooklyn, for the powers that be to revisit the full capacity magazine issue.

Up to that point no one (I imagine that my statement is for patrol only) was authorized to carry more than 10 rounds in the 15 rnd 9mm magazine.
Everything in the City is a knee-jerk re-action.
Unfortunately, a lot of that thinking extends out East as well, but we do have M4 Carbines in the RMPs.

Just setting the record straight...

The "JOB" NEVER issued 10 round mags. It was a proposal that was shot down very quickly. NYS has a 10 round cap on mags, but not for LEOs and the NYPD NEVER went to 10 round mags.

I don't remember 10 rounds max in the mags ever being implemented. Maybe that incident led to the authorization of the Glock 26? The G26 happens to have a 10 round mag. Is that what you're thinking of?

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For the guys still authorized to carry revolvers, how is the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P Short Barrel .38's playing out in actual street shootings? I heard the round was developed at the request of the NYPD. I carry them off-duty in my 642-1.

Sure we do silly! Unfortunatley in our state it's the opposite of left.

How long have you been on the job? According to several trustworthy sources, the original Glock magazines were internally blocked to hold 10 rounds.

I have handled one of the magazines, shown to me by a Glock salesman. The magazine spring was molded into a solid piece of white polymer which fit inside the tube and which did not allow more than 10 rounds to be loaded, even though it was a "high cap" tube.

A new commissioner and a shooting incident in which someone ran dry caused a swift policy change. Are you quite certain that the 10 round limit was never put in place? Many articles reported on this, and I am repeating what was written at the time.

I thought the Beretta 92D was authorized as well? EAU only maybe?

ESU had the 92 way back on a trial basis. I think it might have even been the actual 92FS, and not the double action only 92D. Rumor had it that it did not make the cut because some EDP (emotionally disturbed person) manged to get the slide off like Jet Li did in Lethal Wepaon 4 by grabbing the slide while flipping the takedown lever and yanking it off. Of course, if you do a search, you will see how Jet Li managed to do that trick in the movie. The slide was already unlocked and the takedown lever was already down! Not to mention the gun was also a movie prop and not capable of firing.

Actually, the job DID issue 10 round mags. Cops that had the trial Ruger's had 10 round mags for them, and the first class to be trained with 9MM's was in 1993, while David Dinkins (anti-cop Al Sharpton disciple) was mayor. He lost the election to guiliani is 1994, and the first thing Guiliani did was make Bill Bratton his PC. Bratton quickly authorized 15 round mags, and the night before gun and shield day, members of the firearms section were up all night on OT converting the 10 round mags to 15. 2500 graduating cops meant 7500 mags had to be changed!

I finish my 29th year this January....AND my trustworthy source is the Sr gunsmith at RN...

I do not doubt there were 10 round mags (especially the Ruger test guns) and the range prolly had them ready, BUT they were NEVER issued to uniform MOS who carried Glocks, 5946's or Sig's.

What years, which model(s) (89DAO, 93DAO, etc.), how many?

I assume they didn't last long hence the title of "trial", were there issues?

I find this thread very interesting, thank you all for keeping it so,
Scott

I thought that the Speer Gold Dot 38SPL 135gr +P load was specifically designed for the NYPD in use in backup revolvers? That load isn't that old...

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The way the whole 10 round magazine story was told to me was that they were issued with the very first 9mm's but never hit the street. That idea was killed right away.

I also heard that the Beretta slide removal incident happened in training, not on the street. ESU cried and moaned until they got some for test and eval. While doing training with them someone brought up the possibility of the takedown lever getting flipped and the slide pulled off. Apparently they managed to pull it off to a certain degree and killed the Beretta for ESU.

I got both stories from a SGT who spent the mid 90's at the Outdoor Range.

Correct. It was jointly developed by Speer & NYPD for use in 1 7/8" bbl M36 and the like. Also good in 4" bbls.

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Okay, well the 10 rnd mag cap is correct, and the incident that changed it was the Brooklyn beauty salon shooting, in February 1994.
I found the link, so you guys can read about it and it will explain in detail the change in NYPD policy for the 9mm Semi-auto.
Police to Carry More Rounds For Semiautomatic Weapons - NYTimes.com

I remember it like it was yesterday, and I wasn't hired until 1997.

So, FFwd to 1997 when I was in the Bag. We carried the S&W 5946, or the Glock 19, both with 15 rnd capacities. I remember seeing guys with the Sig, and the Ruger 9mm, but they weren't offered to my class.
The training of the day was based on, "the Semi-auto will malfunction" so the autorized off-duty was the .38 revolver. That mindset remained until 1998 when the next academy class was trained in the new semi-auto off-duties. I don't even know what they were.
Since I never switched to the newly authorized semi-auto off-duty, I am still permitted (as long as I qualify with it) to carry the off-duty revolver. My old partner still does too, and we were hired together.

I am no longer restricted by these parameters. I carry what I want as long as I qualify on it. I do however stay with the City's authorized ammunition, because around the area, everyone else uses it too.