Anyone shooting their aluminum framed models a lot?

I shoot mine quite a bit. My Shorty 45 is the one I'm currently putting many rounds through.

I've experienced significant wear on my 3913, 4563's, and 4013. I keep the recoil springs changed every 3000 - 5000 rounds, and use TW25 grease on the rails. Still, where the barrel lugs impact the frame shows peening type wear, and the two frame "shoulders" on either side of the chamber have triangular marks on top, which correspond with the triangular "cuts" in the bottom of the barrel either side of the chamber.

I read that S&W tested their aluminum frames out to 30,000 rounds with no failures or "significant wear". Is the wear I'm seeing on these guns normal? Something to be overlooked?

Is this wear, like the flame cutting on a revolver, something that is self limiting?

What are you folks seeing on your 3rd generation aluminum framed pistols? Regards 18DAI.

I have several alloy frame police trade-in 3rd Gens that have the same type of peening and wear that you describe. I cannot advise how many round the PD's put through them, but I shoot them often. My first auto was a 915 that I put at least 20,000-25,000 rounds through. Some of which was factory ammo but a lot of which was reloads (experimental and standard loads). And several +P and +P+ rounds. It started out with peening and the triangle marks, which made me nervous. But eventually it just seemed to wear itself smooth again. So I looked at it as the self-limiting wear that you described and kept on shooting. I waited a long time for some kind of problem or reliability issue to arise to I could justify sending it back in to S&W, just never happened.

I've always seen some normal and expected wear on my alloy frames in the areas you've mentioned. Ditto on the alloy models I've helped support over the years.

The peening and wear seen down inside the frame's camming shoulders (caused by the barrel lugs on each side of the feedramp area) isn't unexpected.

One time some years ago I became concerned that I was seeing more wear in that area on a 4013TSW than on my 9's & .45's, and I took the opportunity to show it to a fellow visiting from the factory. He told me he did a lot of weekend local competitive shooting with a pair of 4003TSW's, and that each of his 4003's had been fired more than 25K. He said that his 4003's displayed about the same amount of wear my 4013TSW displayed at less than 3K rounds. His opinion was that it was self-limiting, presuming normal maintenance, inspections and replacement of recoil springs.

I've been told by a more experienced armorer at another agency that the critical spot where peening should not occur in the area of the frame's camming shoulders is at the very top of them. He said this point controls the release of the barrel to go back into battery and it must remain sharp and constant as when originally produced. He went on to tell me that he had an early production 4013 which had started to exhibit peened and uneven top edges on each of the frame's angled shoulders and which interfered with normal cycling. Once that had occurred his frame was toast and the factory replaced his gun with another model at no charge.

I once had a guy bring me a 3913TSW for inspection and maintenance. He shot it frequently and had reached between 12-15K rounds. He claimed he had replaced the recoil spring approx every 5K rounds. I found an unusual scratch on the outside/front of the frame's dustcover. It was about 1/2" long and appeared to run approx parallel to the bottom of the frame's dustcover rail, looking at the dustcover from the front edge, starting at the very front of the dustcover on one side. When I applied pressure to the frame I found that the scratch was really a crack.

This was a weird crack because it was in a non-stressed area. The owner said he'd seen the crack some time ago but had just thought it was a scratch and ignored it. His gun had not been experiencing any functioning issues. The factory examined the gun and wanted to replace it with another similar model. They also thought it was weird for a crack to develop in that spot and had no explanation for it, other than saying that it was definitely not a common occurrence.

I remember one time discussing with a factory tech how I'd estimated I'd reached approx 45K rounds in my very early production 6906, and that while the frame was starting to show some noticeable peening and wear, that it was still cycling smoothly, both by hand and during live-fire, and wasn't exhibiting any functioning problems. The tech just chuckled and said that while they had improved their alloy frames over the years, and felt they were pretty durable, that back about the time my gun was built they'd never expected anyone to shoot that many rounds through one. He causally mentioned that if I ever wore it out so that it wouldn't function normally at some point, they'd replace it with another gun.

There's another forum member that sometimes visits here who used to work for the state police agency that essentially pioneered the use of the 115gr +P+ JHP for their M39's (and subsequent S&W alloy 9mm's). As I recall, his agency carried S&W's for close to 30 years (or more). He's sometimes related how a former instructor for that agency once tried to wear out a 2nd gen (459?) alloy 9mm by shooting their +P+ load, recording more than 50K rounds before his retirement. The gun remained serviceable and he apparently continued to shoot the gun after his retirement (he was allowed to keep the gun).

Now, sure, sometimes an alloy frame may crack or become worn to the point where it becomes unserviceable. It's not like it's steel, right? I have a copy of an older FBI FTU report dating from 87-88 where they tested a number of the then-current alloy framed service pistols available for LE use. Some of the 459's did develop frame cracks at the 10K point, or beyond, but so did at least one other major manufacturer's model. Without belaboring the other manufacturer's name, the report contains a comment about the president of the other firearms company being reported to have said that if the agency wanted a pistol with an alloy frame that would exceed the military specification for an acceptable service life, which was 5K rounds at that time, that the agency should state that requirement and a suitable alloy frame would be developed for their use. Apparently that happened at some point, because that make of pistol was later adopted for several years.

Personally, I think that if an alloy framed pistol made by one of today's respected makers is properly maintained that it ought to provide a pretty decent service life for most owners and users (meaning properly cleaned & lubricated, reasonable spring replacement and the ammunition selected meets the recommendations of the firearm maker, etc).

Now, a steel framed pistol generally ought to be even more resistant to wear and peening than an alloy gun when it comes to frame rail wear and barrel/frame contact points. I recall the FBI report listing their Brownings (used by HRT back then) as having provided service use exceeding 80K rounds, although there had naturally been some parts replacement involved (including barrels).

I try to spread out my shooting among the various guns I personally own. While I've lost count of the rounds fired through an early production Ruger KP90DC .45 (which has required replacement of a handful of parts, mostly for wear but one for breakage), most of my own alloy framed guns have only seen several thousand rounds fired.

My half dozen plastic framed guns have seen more shooting though them. (Maybe I just don't mind the thought of trying to wear out a plastic gun and replacing it. Maybe I don't mind using them 'harder' than my favorite alloy pistols. Dunno. ) Anyway, 3 of them have seen more than 10K rounds through them (some parts replacement for periodic maintenance). The others are coming along.

The guy with the cracked 3913TSW? His replacement gun has seen extensive use. I finally gave him a handful of recoil springs (and some mag springs) and told him to simply replace the recoil springs at least every 3-5K rounds and keep the gun lubricated. He's not going to 'take it easy' on that gun ... or any of his guns, for that matter.

He's fired over 20K rounds through a Colt Officer's since we had it 'redone' by a much more experienced Colt armorer. He cracked a barrel bushing between 10-12K, but it continued to do fine with a new bushing (and with normal maintenance) until he retired it after a little more than 20K rounds, in favor of a S&W pistol.

Last I heard he'd fired in excess of 60K rounds each through a pair of SW99's (one each 9/.40) and several thousand rounds through a SW99 40 compact. I just make sure to keep him in recoil and mag springs and perform some maintenance on his guns every year or two. I did have to replace a broken ejector in the standard size SW99 40 somewhere after he said he'd passed the 50K point, which isn't unreasonable, I'd think.

Bottom line? I don't abuse my alloy framed pistols, but then neither do I really worry about wearing them out anymore, either.

I don't have the definitive answer for you, though.

Perhaps a forum member who is a gunsmith or a former S&W employee might stop in and offer an opinion. My experience is obviously limited to that which I've seen while being an armorer for one smaller agency with only several hundred guns in service, and providing support for a handful of other cops and for my own guns.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I got rid of my first Model 39 after about 1500 rounds, as it had started to lose its accuracy. I think the wear on the cams in the frame caused wobble in the rear of the barrel. I grease this area now in my 39s.

I shoot my 3953's and 4053's almost every weekend. A conservative estimate of what I have put through all four, two of each, is about 18,000 - 20,000 rounds per pistol over the last 12 - 14 years. No telling how many rounds went down range before I bought them as both 3953's are police trade-ins along with one of the 4053's. No problems other than one of the 3953's sheared the side off of the firing pin tip, but it did continue to function, although not reliably. I replaced the recoil springs when I purchsed them and replace them every 3,000 rounds and the magazine springs every year. Every other year the mag followers get replaced along with a complete tear down and replacement of all springs.

Class III

"I've been told by a more experienced armorer at another agency that the critical spot where peening should not occur in the area of the frame's camming shoulders is at the very top of them. He said this point controls the release of the barrel to go back into battery and it must remain sharp and constant as when originally produced. He went on to tell me that he had an early production 4013 which had started to exhibit peened and uneven top edges on each of the frame's angled shoulders and which interfered with normal cycling. Once that had occurred his frame was toast and the factory replaced his gun with another model at no charge"

Sometimes I feel like all I do on this forum is follow Fastbolt around and say "That's right, that's right!" Problem is of course, he knows his stuff.

The I have several vrey high round count 39XXs and they all have some preening of the rails adjacent to the frame cams. The wear seems to be progressive, but in no case has it been enough to affect function. I do use grease instead of oil on these guns, but I don't know if that makes any difference.

Preening on the frame cams is a different matter and can quickly become a safety issue. The first sign I noticed was development of an off center firing pin strike. I wasn't much, but it was noticeable. The second thing I noticed was a small deformation of the fired case rim. It looked as if the extractor was trying to take a small triangular "bite" out of the rim. The thing that finally caused the light to come on occured when I watched someone else fire the pistol. A pretty impressive fireball and a shower of sparks appeared over the chamber area. What with recoil and concentration on the sights, I hadn't noticed it when I was shooting.

The gun was discharging while still slightly out of battery. This process started well before there was a noticable displacement of metal on the frame cams. That is why I mention the firing pin and extractor marks, as the appearance of either should prompt a very close examination of the gun.

The gun in question is a 3953. I haven't contacted the factory yet, but I suspect I may well be out of luck. The fact that this is a DAO may complicate things.

Charles

Well, I've simply followed other folks around and learned from them. Still do, for that matter. Never ends.

One of the things I've often heard described regarding how to help assess the frame's wear inside the area where the barrel lugs cam down it so check how the (EMPTY) pistol feels when it's cycled manually at the bench. Smooth? Rough? Hesitation? A 'catch'? Will it easily go forward into complete battery? Those sorts of things.

It's one thing to keep hearing it but never experience anything other than normal, smooth cycling ... but it's another thing altogether the first time you really feel something 'different' while doing normal bench checks.

The first time I felt a problem was when I was replacing the slide on an older, somewhat worn 6906 frame. I tried the slide and barrel taken from another older 6906. There was extreme roughness and several points where there was a definite catch in the action. It felt like someone had poured a handful of gravel in the gun. Obviously, not good.

Looking at the frame where the barrel cammed within the frame I noticed the wear/peening was within what I'd been told was an acceptable, normal range. The 'new' barrel's camming lugs just didn't want to move up & down within the frame in a smooth and normal manner, though.

Next I tried the barrel which had been previously used in that frame, with the 'new' slide, and found that it provided for smooth and normal hand cycling. Apparently the barrel lugs which had created the long term wear inside the frame would still work in the frame where the other barrel's lugs were just different enough to create problems. The barrel did require a bit of fitting in the area of the barrel tab in order for it to fit and function within the 'new' slide within desired specs, but that was easy enough to do. I was lucky it could be made to easily fit. (Nothing that S&W pistol armorers weren't previously taught to do when the parts weren't being machined quite as precisely, or to the consistently close tolerances, as is being done nowadays.)

Once that bit of fitting was done, everything felt fine and appeared as it should as far as bench checks. Live-fire testing confirmed normal operation. That 6906 subsequently provided me with excellent service as a duty weapon for several thousand rounds before it was retired for a brand new model.

I'll never forget that awful feeling though. The instance I experienced was on the extreme end of what can happen when these parts aren't within normal spec and can cause problems, of course, but it certainly served to give me a glimpse of something other than normal functioning.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

this is my CQB alloy frame close to the 13K mark of mainly 230 ball.

this gun was not babied but it was always kept lubed. slide to frame fit is still close fit for being alloy with over 13 k.

if I would say there is any alloy push is the part where the barrel slaps onto the frame and the angle cuts underneath where the barrel rides up.

sorry for my terminology.

when I had a 4013TSW. round count....600?

my alloy CQB after a 2 day 800 rnd school. I intentionally did not clean it on day one and I paid for it. it was very difficult to clean. close to the end of day two, slide action was very sluggish but it never missed a beat.

Thanks for sharing all your experience and knowledge. Definitely appreciated.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Thanks to all, especially Fastbolt and CQB45!

I checked the shoulders on all of mine last night. All OK!

This is now something I won't be concerned about. I don't see myself wearing any of mine out in whatever time I have left.

Many thanks! Regards 18DAI.

This is now something I won't be concerned about. I don't see myself wearing any of mine out in whatever time I have left.
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'Bout choked on my coffee when I read that. Those are famous last words, if ever I read any! I can see it now. The rest of us will be long gone, and you will be 99 years old, using your hologaphic cloud based personal interface system, telling some poor shmo at Smith and Wesson that "Lifetime" is the operative word in "Lifetime Warranty".

The way the world works, it's bound to happen...

Charles