Yeah, but if you drank the kool aid it would have never developed issues, didn't you know that? ROF!!!

Welcome to the forum c3 rolling!

I look forward to hearing your experiences with S&W 45's! Regards 18DAI.

Wow! Those grips are beautiful! I'm going to order a set for my 645 as I still have the stock plastic grips on it. The wood grips look fantastic!

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S&W 645, 3913, 59, 669

Yep, it takes some time to develop the ingrained manipulation skills (and response) to decock the 3rd gen guns (and return the lever up to the ready-to-fire position at the appropriate time). Similar to how depressing the thumb safety lock has to be done on a 1911 to shoot, and then returned up to the On-Safe condition at the appropriate time. Neither of which is required with the Glock, so it makes sense that the platforms with the extra manipulations involved take some additional training and practice for users.

As far as the G22's feeding/ejection issues after 5K+ rounds?

Well, back about '08 Glock released a Wearable Parts Replacement Schedule for Glock .40's in use with LE. The recommended replacement interval for the G22's recoil spring assembly was listed at 2,500 rounds, with the interval for the mag springs listed at 2,500-4,000 rounds ... and then the disclaimer that for best results the recoil spring assembly should be checked (using the field recoil spring test) at each range or qual session, and to replace mag springs at least every other time the recoil spring is replaced.

The newest armorer manual simply says that the recoil & mag springs are among the 9 springs that may require attention at some point ... (and the new captive recoil spring assembly for the Gen4 G22's will probably run for 5-7K rounds according to the info received from Glock).

I tend to suspect that some folks tried to run springs for longer than might be practical or prudent for LE service guns, but that's just my thoughts.

Enjoy the 4506. Good gun.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Hey "18DAI" your contact at LAPD have any estimate about how many Officers have transitioned to the S&W 4506/4566 pistol?
"c3rolling" I have one of the early 3rd generation Glock 22's, it has in excess of 12,000 rounds with a weapon light installed never has had any malfunctions, I much prefer the S&W 4506 or 1911 pistol, but I can't fault the Glock!

Hi Tim Nagel,

No I've not had contact with him in some time. Last word was there were "quite a few more than expected" making the transition.

I have noticed fewer 4566's and 4506's available on the auction boards lately. Maybe its coincidence. Regards 18DAI.

Interesting, Interesting.

I taught the original transition school in the late 80s when we first went to Beretta and Smiths. Just before the North Hollywood Shootout, Larry Mudgett and myself got the S&W approved by the Police Commission. The 645's and 4506's became very popular until the Glock craze. I even had one of the rare all blue steel models 4505 (should of never sold it) and one the PC built for me. Since Glock had all the problems with their 45 version many officers wanted to carry the S&W's again. Some couldn't "revert" because they started their careers with the Glock. If you started with a firearm that had no "manual" safety, i.e.. the revolver or Glock you needed to go through the transition school. Our schools are not the easiest to complete and do cause quite a bit of "muscle memory" to be had.

With the advent of the 1911 program (I've been carrying one for quite a while) much of the fervor is pointed in that direction. The 1911 weapon system is definitely a "professional" system and needs it's own "muscle memory" trained in.

Mike
30+ and still going...

I'll bet you regret selling the 4505.

BTW, is there a minimum "round count" expected in your S&W TDA/decocker transition training (presuming no student problems)?

When we helped set up the 1911 transition training we had the folks shoot a minimum of 2,000 rounds, without problem, before clearing them to carry the weapons on-duty. Just curious.

Also, on the S&W TDA's, are they being told to carry them off-safe/ready-to-fire or on-safe?

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

when I carried my CQB on duty, I switch to a manual decocker to utilize trimmed Ed Brown dehorned paddles.

I always carried down (decocker down) and when coming out of a level three holster on the same fluid motion...swept the decocker up.

made a definite "click" that made several look at the muzzle end of the CQB.

I think I read on a previous post where the decockers were kept up (ready to go) in the holster.

my well used CQB sporting ed brown trimmed paddles.

I found this on the ground somewhere...

Dated March 1, 2011. -

Personnel, who were issued a revolver when initially hired, are only authorized to carry a revolver, unless they have successfully completed the Department’s Semi-Automatic Pistol Transition Course. All revolvers must be in .38 Special caliber and double action only, by design, or as modified by a Department Armorer.

Personnel who were issued a Beretta pistol when initially hired, are only authorized to carry a Beretta or Smith and Wesson, semi-automatic pistol, as their primary duty weapon. However, they may also carry a Glock pistol if they have successfully completed the Department’s Glock Transition Course.

Personnel who were issued a Glock pistol when initially hired, are only authorized to carry Glock semi-automatic pistols. These Officers may also carry a Smith and Wesson or Beretta semi-automatic pistol only if they have successfully completed the Department’s Double Action Semi-Automatic School (Decocker School).

All personnel, who were originally trained with a semi-automatic pistol (Glock or Beretta) may also carry a revolver as a back-up or off-duty firearm, if they have successfully completed the Back-up Firearms Course. This course is usually completed during initial Academy training.

The .45 Caliber Handgun Transition Course has been phased out by the Department. All personnel may carry .45 caliber pistols, only in those weapons systems that they have been trained and certified to use.

Personnel who have attended the Pistol With Attached Light (PWAL) training, are authorized to attach an approved lighting system to a Beretta, Smith and Wesson, Glock or 1911 pistol. Pistols utilizing a light must be originally manufactured with a rail. Aftermarket rail attachment systems are not authorized and will not be installed by the Department Armory. A Department approved holster must be utilized in conjunction with the PWAL.


BTW, Ruger LCP and S&W Bodyguard have also been approved. Both are .380.

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Beretta 92FS w/ Trijicon NS
Glock 19 w/ Heinie NS
Glock 22 w/ Heinie NS & Streamlight TLR-1
Glock 23 w/ Heinie NS
Glock 26 w/ Trijicon NS
HK USP9c Stainless
S&W 642

Oh, so the decocker school for the LAPD isn't just for .45 caliber Smith & Wesson pistols. The 9mm models and Berettas are authorized as well?

Is the P226 or P229 authorized for this course?

Mr Bacon, any chance you could return to that spot and see if the syllabus was discarded as well? Regards 18DAI

45 S&W and 45 Beretta.

SIG has never been authorized.

Mg

Average RD count is 1500

I'd still like a copy of the course if someone has it. Thanks!

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

Written requests on Department Letterhead to the OIC of the Firearms Unit is the only way it gets sent out.

Mike

Ah, ok. Thanks for the info.

That's a shame about the Sig, though.

Thank you

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

The de-cocker school can be taken with any dept approved Beretta or smith. There were a couple that went through the class with a 9mm Beretta. My class was maxed out at 15 officers and apparently they will run only 1 or 2 classes a year. I think most are happy with the Glock or are pursuing the 1911 school. I thought about purchasing a 1911 and trying for the school but I'm so happy with the 4506 that I decided against it. I talked to the firearms coordinator and apparently they are going to authorize SW M&P's. I waiting for the SW bodyguard to get in stock to replace my SW .38 back up.

I'd handle that Bodyguard first - were I you.

The ones I examined had OK triggers, but were not something I'd consider as a BUG/off duty gun.

Try to find a nice 640-1. Pre lock, pre MIM, all stainless goodness. Nice 357 all stainless BUG.

I'm surprised that they might approve the M&P - unless they are getting the "for free" deal that S&W is pushing. Regards 18DAI.

Any recent updates about the S&W school and the 4506? Where are the Officers finding new 4506's? The seem to be hard to find in decent shape in my area!

Tim,

What updates are you looking for?

The school is scheduled to run 2-3 times this year. It is limited in size and there is a waiting list. We are short on Funds, Instructors and Range time, just like every other department.

Most people already have their weapons or are buying them from other Officers.

Mike

Mike, I was just wondering where the Officers were finding new 4506's? I have one but one of my brother Officers can't seem to locate one. Our Firearms guy insists it needs to be new in the box or checked over by S&W before he will qualify him on the 4506/4566 pistol. Around here in Ohio they have all seemed to have dried up! Thanks for your response!

Tim,well new ones from S+W are non existant right now, when you say your firearms guy ,is he an instructor,an armorer,OIC or what.
Granted any used pistol should be function checked,make sure all safeties operate properly,and that the gun at least meets mininum factory specs as far as trigger press weight and that it doesnt malfunction when shot.If your agency has some restrictions,thats one thing,if this is just what he wants,and he cannot perform the checks himself, he should get the training or pass the job to someone who isnt too lazy to handle it. One guy shouldnt be able to hold up another officer(unless he is the Chief).

Right now the 4506/4566 rush is on ,young guys here are paying over a grand for a good night sighted 06 with several mags and the associated leather gear.Whoopee!!! Personally I think the gun is great so as far as Im concerned its a good thing but they are becoming scarce at any price.REB

He's our Department Firearms Instructor/ Officer hes more a Glock guy than S&W! He's a Glock Armorer, he will let use a used S&W 4506/4566, but he wants it checked over by a certified S&W Armorer.

Where I was the only one of 3500 or so carrying a 45XX a few weeks ago, I just got two calls about others wanting to use them as we do have them on the approved list. One actually told me he wanted a 4506 as it was the "Vic Mackey" gun from The Shield. I guess I don't care what his reason is as long as it gets a S&W steel .45 on the street.

The NIB 4506-1's are VERY scarce lately. There have been a few lightly used 4506's on Gunbroker in the last month or so. The vast majority though appear to have had rather rough lives.

I found a 4506 in a remote area of VA yesterday and slapped it in layaway. A dash 3 with adjustable night sights in fairly new condition.

Unlike the 4506-3 I picked up in the Cabela's deal last month, this one yesterday has a MIM hammer. I'm going to replace it with a blue forged hammer when I get it out of layaway.

One way to track down a LNIB 4506 is to contact your area S&W LEO rep. They can see if any are "in the vault" and also check local distributors for you........after they pester you to buy an M&P instead.

I'll keep any eye out locally for you Tim Nagel. Regards 18DAI.

Thanks 18DAI!

I'm watching the BB's for you and will let you know if one comes up that's worth it, right now even the ****** ones go quick!

Mike

Thanks for looking, we found a NIB S&W 4506 at an estate sale locally, he got it for $475 with 6 mags! He got a deal because the guy doing the sale likes LE Officers!

So, one year later, is this school still being run? Are many still switching over?

What has been more popular, the 4506 or 4566?

What are the 3rd gen S&W guys using as an off duty gun? Thanks again, especially to our LAPD guys for sharing all the info! Regards 18DAI

An additional quiry:are any 9mm 3rd Gens such as the 5903,5906,or 5904 being used in LAPD service?Last I checked they were authorized alongside the Beretta 9mm.

My department (rather, the one I retired from) was still issuing 4566's for quite some time after S&W 'discontinued' them. S&W continued to supply the department with 50 guns here, 100 guns there, but the cost was considerably more expensive than when the guns were a regular production item. That equals budget concerns.
I was given my 4566 upon retirement, and shortly thereafter the move was made to M&P .45's after testing many others.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Greetings. 1st post, outstanding forum. Does anyone have any info on departments that transitioned from the 4566 to the M&P 45 with the thumb safety? My understanding is that very few departments went with the thumb safety on the M&P 45. I am attempting to gather enough information to persuade the powers that be in a local department that has had half its officers trained on the 4566, but is equipped with the M&P 45 with thumb safety, to eliminate the thumb safety in an upgrade package. Muscle memory problems have surfaced in critical incidents with the M&P 45 with previously trained 4566 officers. Many thanks in advance.

I think one of the biggest hurdles is getting officers to develop that required muscle memory especially when it comes to change.

Many will not practice at home to get better.

Switching from a slide mounted decocker to a frame mounted safety is two different animals.

good luck

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if you're gonna be a bear...

Thank you for your response. This is exactly why I am trying to persuade the department to upgrade their M&P45s that would include eliminating the thumb safety altogether. They seem adamant about keeping it. The 4566 and the M&P are completely different animals and I feel the M&P in an officer's hand serves better without the thumb safety - it simply eliminates the potential for any safety-engagement-problem whatsoever during a critical incident.

It would be one thing if they operated the same, but when you have to move them in opposite directions to fire, that can be a problem.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

When the price of a 4506 reaches $3000 I'll consider selling my 4506 no dashes. Its the only gun I ever was truly willing to bet my life on. I don't need to do that anymore. These days I enjoy playing with CZ's and any no-name gun. Now playing with a SCCY CPX-1 2 generation. This gun was so ****** it had to morph generations. Its a fun gun but I can't find a use for it. Never carry. Trigger sucks. But its just fun to play with. I'm thinking its a tackle box gun, but I don't fish.