A fellow forum member read my response to Moose21 regarding concealment holsters and my experience training with a 4516. He asked that I start a thread regarding the 4516 as a law enforcement weapon and how it performed during a two week tactical speed shooting course I attended at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. So, here goes...

I carried a first generation 4516 in a plain clothes capacity for 10 or 12 years until I traded it in for my current CS45. Prior to that I carried a first generation 645, and before that a 469. I also carried a 4566 for a short while before I retired in 2004. So all tolled I carried S&W semi-autos for approximately 17 years. Prior to that it was wheel guns.

Of the four semi-autos I found the 4516 to be the best compromise for plain clothes carry. I loved how the 645 handled and shot, but it is a very large and heavy piece. The CS45 is a little short on handling and long range shooting, but a great carry gun still considering how small and light they are. The 4566 comes close to the 4516, but not quite. It is a little heavy and the longer butt is harder to conceal.

The tactical speed shooting course I mentioned was federal law enforcement's answer to the various private combat courses being conducted Masaad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper and the like. The course consisted of two weeks of shooting as much ammo as you could stand in every conceivable situation. We average 500+ rounds a day in the hand guns alone plus some shotgun, machine guns, and a lot of simunitions. At the end of the course they told us we had each shot in excess of 6,000 live rounds. This was full house loads, not wimpy wad cutter stuff.

During that entire course my 4516 did not malfunction once. I did break an ejector, but the gun kept functioning and I did not discover the broken part until I cleaned the gun at the end of the day. I did see a number of malfunctions in other brands, but mostly due to improper handling rather than design flaw. The Sig's were the worst.

The virtues I like best about the 4516 are:

1. Smooth contours and no snag points (spurless hammer, Novack low mount sights).

2. Very easy to conceal for the barrel length and mag capacity.

3. All steel construction, very rugged.

4. Very ergonomic shape with natural point ability (for me anyway).

5. Very good accuracy for such a short barrel.

I had a hot rod Colt all steel Commander (which I sold to Larry Cooper of the BATF. You may recognize his name if you are familiar with Ruby Ridge) but it never did shoot as well or as naturally as the 4516. Or maybe I just didn't shoot it enough, I don't know.

Well, that's enough of that. Hope it might be useful to someone considering a 4516. If you can't find one, my next choice would be the 457 or the 4566. Keep safe!

Thanks for the info, I also like the 4516.

Great thread!!

The 4516 is one of my favorites. Back when I was looking for a compact 45, I tried all the popular models. Sig 245, Kimber Ultra, Colt Defender ect.

The 4516 was the only one to run 100% reliably - AND have tack driving accuracy.

I "discovered" the 4516 accidently. Back in 2003 my agency had a range day where we used confiscated guns to destroy confiscated ammunition. We destroyed it by sending it down range. A bread truck full of ammunition and guns was pulled up by the range. SRT and the few gunnies got most of the good stuff, 10mm and all the 1911's.

I fished through a box of guns and underneath a 6" nickel Python with lime green faux pearl grips, found a filthy 4516 no dash. I don't think that 4516 had been cleaned or lubed since it left Springfield. Hmmm.... a compact S&W 45. I'll try this.

I spent the day with that one pistol. It's accuracy was startling for a little 45. Around 300 rounds it started to get slow so I broke it down, hosed it with Breakfree and went on to fire a few hundred more problem free rounds. The rounds were a milk crate of everything. Wadcutters, JHP and ball. Some were so old they were green with verdigris. The little 4516 ate them all.

I was so impressed I went out and hunted down a NIB 4516-3. Mine has laser etched markings and was made between 2003 and 2004. It was an overun from a law enforcement order. Up until a year or so ago you could still order 50 brand new S&W 3rd generation pistols.

I qualified with my 4516-3 again this year for on and off duty. I shot a 100 score on the night portion. It is a superb duty gun.

I'll probably pick up another 4516 maybe a 4516-1. I'd like to hunt down the elusive PC 4516. I've never seen one, but the code is listed in the SCSW.

Great underated pistol the 4516. Everything you want in a compact 45 and nothing you don't. Regards 18DAI.

Agreed! I currently run an old 645 named "Sonny" and it just eats everything I stick in the magazine including EMPTIES!! And a 5946.
I'm curious as to the sort of malfs the SIGs were suffering though?

__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

The Sigs were suffering from failure to feed problems because of loose grips on the guns by the shooters. I have seen this many times when teaching semi-auto conversion classes to LEO's who had been trained on revolvers. It wasn't just with the Sigs, but other makes as well. However, the Smiths seemed to suffer from it less.

I traded my 645 for a 4566 to an FBI Agent who just had to have the gun Sonny Crockett carried in Miami Vice. I'm guessing that's where you 645's name came from?

P.S. The worst *** I ever saw on the line was a Beretta.

The 4516 sounds a lot like my 4566. If BBs and rocks will fit the mag, the gun will feed them.

I bought my police trade-in 4566 with no clue as to condition or # of rounds thru it. Starting off with a thorough cleaning/lube, it's fed FMJs, PDX1s, and many 230 grn LRN reloads without a hiccup. That 45XX series is tough to beat.

Reading the above posts made me sit down and think about why I like my 4516-1. I have come up with the following reasons:

1. It's different. In an agency of 3500 I'm the last holdout with a S&W 3rd gen pistol....I use a 4506/1006 for uniform and the 4516 for detective work. My religious backup is a 442. When I'm at the range or on the street I can see the younger deputies look at the stainless S&W steel monsters and wonder what they are. Afterall, there is a mysterious aspect to anything not Glock or 1911 in our agency. I like being different..I wear a full Class B uniform on patrol and a leather duty belt most of the time. My shirts and trousers are pressed and I still polish my boots with Parade Gloss and a cotton ball. In the modern days of polo shirts and external vest carriers, Glocks and plastic I probably don't fit in, but I'm OK with that. The type of guy who polishes his boots is in my mind they kind of guy who would carry a S&W 4516. They guys who want easy, no maintenance and don't want to pay attention to detail tend, in my experience, to wear a Glock, nylon duty gear and crumpled, unpressed uniforms. I guess our choice of hardware speaks to our inner discipline to an extent.

My first run in with a S&W 4516 and 4566 was in the hands of a US Marshal on an extradition flight. He appeared to me at the time to be the epitome of a professional law enforcement officer and he certainly looked like he knew how to use his hardware. I guess subconsciously I wanted to be like that and the 4516 fit the mold....it's good to have heros these days and role models.

2. The 4516 is reliable... Mine feeds empty cases from the magazine without fail. Try and get a Glock or Colt to do that.

3. Its comforting... I don't know really how to explain this but for those of you in law enforcement you've been in a situation where your sidearm has been out and you have complete confidence in knowing what you can do to remedy the issue, and if you need to do it, you know there won't be an issue from the hardware perspective. My 4516, and 4506, feel good in my hand, have a heft to them that lets me know they're there, and somehow inspire confidence that at least the hardware isn't something I have to worry about. Somehow, holding plastic doesn't bring about the same comforting feeling as heavy, stainless steel. When I carry my 4516, I know it'll work all the time, the round will go where I aim it, and it's a serious firearm.

Oh well, this is just one person's perspective. If you want, sit back in your chair and hold a Glock 22 in one hand and your 45XX/10XX in the other and ask yourself the following question: "What would Bill Jordan, Charles Askins, Melvin Purvis, etc., carry??" If you're wondering who these guys are you've probably already chosen the Glock.

My theory on why the 4516 is so comfortable to shoot is that the design has stuffed about the maximum mass into the minimum space. It's really heavy and its all close to your hand. FWIW.

I tried to find a 4516 long after their release and was told they had been discontinued, I don't remember the year but I found one police trade-in that I didn't buy at the time. Can you 4516 guys verify the discontinuation? I bought a 4516-2 in late 1994 and was told it had been re-introduced. I'm curious about the history of the 4516.
Steve

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Birds like shiny new toys too.

I have a 645 I bought used and I have a problem with it. The last round shot and the slide locks up. Any suggestions

Hi billymontgomery, I have a 645 and the slide locks open after the last shot because the empty magazine locks it open. If that is what you are experiencing that is typical 645 behavior. Drop the magazine out and press down the slide lock and the slide should snap closed. Keep fingers clear.
Steve

__________________
Birds like shiny new toys too.

Thanks srsmyth.My problem is the slide locks closed.I think I have found the problem. The slide lock comes up just enough to grip the edge of the slide and hold it closed. I like this gun, shoots well, and has a nice trigger pull.

The magazine follower should push the slide lock up against the slide when the last round feeds into the chamber. That way the lock engages when the final round is fired. It should not lock the slide in battery.

Is the slide locking with an unfired final round chambered, or only after the final round is fired?
Does it do this with multiple mags or only one?

You can try this:
Perferably with a dummy round or snapcap, carefully otherwise, put one round in the mag and chamber it. Is the slide locked forward? If locked, drop the mag and see if the slide is released. If so, you have a mag spring or follower issue and I'd replace both (or the mag itself).

smsgt
thanks . the slide locks after the final round is fired. following your suggestion I put a dummy round in the magazine and chamberd the round and the slide did not lock. It appears when I fire the last round the slide lock comes away from the frame enough to rub hard enough to lock the slide closed. when I manualy push the slide lock down it frees the slide. it seems that the slide lock should fit closer the frame of the gun. I have a 9mm smith and the slide lock fits closer to the frame.

Is the slide lock seated all the way into the frame? There should be a very small gap when seated properly.

I am going to take a ccw class in February and I am looking for a compact 45. I own a 39-2 in 9mm and it's a great gun but I want a compact 45. This thread has been of great help.

Replace your slide catch. They are known to wear out. The original went bad on one of my 645's and it has run great since the part was replaced.

I had a failure-to-cycle with my early M-4516, a TCP18XX s/n, a first year production gun, the first one I saw, in 1989. A friend and fellow deputy was trying it out when it stopped working. I thought he had limp-wristed it at first. A closer examination showed that he had loaded the magazine with .40 S&W cartridges, and those just didn't run too well.

Two of my squadmates while I worked burglary, then robbery-homicide squads carried them. I never saw either of them fail to fire and cycle during training and qualification. One later went to a compact Glock 9mm. The other traded his in later about 8 years for a blue CS45 when those came out. He appreciated the lighter weight

I think they are a bit heavy for their size, which does allow them to be very strong and long-lived guns, and if need be, make very satisfactory cudgels.

I need to dig mine out and shoot it again soon.

Wow, I never thought this thread would generate so much enthusiasm! Great to see there are so many 4516/45XX lovers still out there. Makes me wish I didn't trade mine in on the CS45, although I would still carry that model because it is so light and easy to conceal. That's why I bought it in the first place, so I WOULD carry it.

At one time the S&W double action semi-auto's were the bread and butter of law enforcement. Just about every department that switched over to semi-auto's went with Smiths. My first S&W semi was a factory brushed chromed 469 designed for the Illinois State Police in the early '80's. I even had a box of their special 9mm +P+ ammo manufactured by Winchester just for them.

Then came the "plastic fantastics". I think the reason Glocks are so popular in law enforcement is you can teach a chimpanzee to shoot one. They don't get any simpler than a Glock. I still prefer the safety of the long double action first pull though, especially if the guy behind me in the stack has his/her finger in the trigger guard!

I came across one in rough, I mean rough shape. A 4516-1. Picked it up for $300, carried it for a while, or tried to anyway, it got too heavy by the end of my long days. I shot it a lot. Well, I was a little younger and much stupider back then (couple of years ago) and I sold it, not knowing what I had. I'm still, to this day, looking for a .45 that is as reliable as that thing was, and one that I don't have to worry about, the way I didn't worry about that one. It didn't have scratches, it had gouges. It must have been run over, twice maybe. Still ran like a top.

The 457 is pretty close to the 4516 but it is about 6 ounces lighter. I have been carrying the stainless 457S for about the last month or so and it is easy to carry and conceal. The blue 457 can be bought used in decent shape for about $300 - $350. The 457S usually goes for about $400.

Bill

I still have the 4516-1 that I bought new around 1990. Used to carry it as a back up and while off duty.

A 4516 is a tough act to follow, that's for sure.

I improved on mine by getting the Shorty Forty Five. Oh my. Very hard to find, but well worth the hunt. Like this:




Cat

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Think for yourself.

I knew a Highway patrolman from Libby Mt that also carried a 4516-1 and loved it. His name is Ordeen Scheer (OD). Do you know him?

Bob

Nope, 'fraid not. I live about 20 miles outside of Libby, but I served all of my career in other states.

I was re-reading this thread and it made me decide to send my 4516-1 off to Novak's to have them do the reliability package, bead blast finish, duty carry trigger pull and Novak logo on the slide. Oh, and night sights too.

I like this little pistol.

Another deputy showed up at annual qualification with one...it's good to see the 3rd gen making a come back.

May I ask what the trigger work cost?

This is my first time on this site. I have 4516-2 that bought new in 1998. I cannot recall ever having a malfunction. Just plain reliable with nice double action/single action feature.

Lately, I have been thinking about trading for something newer so I would not have to worry about parts availability, plus I could go for a little less weight.

I have started looking at the HK45 USP Compact, and Sig P250. But frankly, I cannot find anything that has all the features of my 4516. I was almost sold on the P250, but as i can see this unit is completely double action mode. If it worked like my 4516 I would probably spring for one. The HK appears to work like a 1911, cocked and locked feature which I do not like. Overall, I am not sure the HK price totally equals the value.

I have thought about looking for a 4513TSW with the accessory rail. This would be a little lighter. I am not sure about overall reliability with the aluminum frame. But, based on everything I have looked at, I think I would trade for a nice 4513TSW/Rail or just stick with what i have and keep lifting weights.

It would be interesting to get some feedback on this.


Thanks

The aluminum frame in the Model 4513 holds up just fine with both standard pressure and Plus-P ammunition. The .45 ACP has relatively low pressure limits, 21,000 psi, and most rounds produced less than that, anywhere from 11,500 psi with target 185 gr. bullets to the 230 gr bullet pushed to 830 fps by 19,000 psi. Plus-P loadings are a little more stiff, the 230 grain Plus-P loading gives you less than 100 fps extra over standard pressure in .45 ACP with pressures at about 21,000 psi. So it is some extra wear, but I don't see it as significant.

i have shot an aluminum frame .45 ACP compact pistol as my duty weapon for the last 17 years, a Colt Lightweight Commander, which is in the roughly same strength class as the M-4513. Some years have seen 1,500 or 2,000 rounds fired, some years as few as 500 rounds fired. These have all been Federal brand, 230 grain, with standard presure FMJ ball being fired about 2/3 of the time, Plus-P 1/3 of the time. There isn't much different feel in the recoil between the two catridges fired in the same gun. Just this year, I replaced all the springs in the gun with new ones from Colt, and couple years before that I replaced the original spings with a standard set from Wolfs.

My gun is still just fine. I don't think a diet of quality factory-loaded ammo from any of our big producers would damage your aluminum frame 4513 or wear it excessivley.

I wouldn't worry about wearing out a 4513TSW. I've fired many thousands of rounds through that model without a problem. The wear on the aluminum frame shoulders concerned me greatly at first. But it appears to wear to a point and stop. The 4513's are fine carry 45's. One of my personal favorites. I've bet my life on them and have no complaints.

As to the HK USP 45 compact's, they are fine pistols. They are available in DA/SA as well as with the LEM DAO trigger. The LEM variant I tried was not for me. I own the traditional double action variant.

While the 4516 is a fine pistol and I am an ardent fan, the USP 45 compact is superior to the S&W 45 compacts in a couple of areas. Weight and capacity being the primary USP compact advantages. The USP 45 compact carries 9 rounds vice the 4516's 8 rounds. Fully loaded the USP 45 compact is still lighter than the 4516. I have also found that the USP 45 compact is slightly more accurate than my standard production S&W 45 compacts and almost as accurate as my Performance Center Shorty 45. Almost.

The only category the USP 45 compact fails in, for me, is its double action trigger pull. The USP 45 compacts DA trigger is almost as bad as the M&P's trigger. Almost . Slightly gritty, heavy and stacks before the break. SA is as good as any 1911 I've shot and on par with the S&W 3rd gen 45's. Very crisp. I guess thats why so many users carry their USP cocked and locked. All of the traditional double action USP variants are capable of cocked and locked carry. The USP was designed with some 1911 features in mind. I have found that the USP 45 compacts DA trigger does smooth out as you "wear it in". Not enougth, for me, to date.

I am currently going to see an HK armorer in Asheville NC. He claims he can improve the DA trigger pull on my HK USP 45 compact by smoothing a few parts and changing out a hammer spring. We'll see.

As far as the HK USP prices are concerned, you get what you pay for - in the case of HK products anyway. I've owned HK USP handguns since 1995. I currently own 4 and have owned several others over the years that I've sold for various reasons - none of those reasons being the HK handgun itself. I've yet to pay more than $650 for an HK product. Deals are out there if you look around a little.

People who pay full retail are usually in a hurry or don't know what a gun is worth, in my experience. Personally, I will gladly pay $700 for an HK pistol I want. I know it will be accurate and reliable right out of the box, with no need to rebuild a brand new gun using Apex parts or aftermarket barrels, just to make it useable.

Police trade ins are bargains. Some light holster wear - thats it. The guns shoot like brand new. Last June I picked up an HK USP 45 compact with original case, three mags and Trijicon night sights. $479 OTD at Lawmans Safety supply in Raleigh NC. Last December I picked up a USP full size 45 with case, three mags and Trijicon night sights for $650 OTD at Striechers police supply in Greensboro NC.

If you want, call Lawmens in Raliegh. They had around 20 USP 45 compacts left last time I was there and they ship out of state.

While I am a fan and proponent of the S&W 3rd gen 45's, I've got alot of time behind HK products and am a proponent of them as well. Other than the Walther PPQ, the HK's are the only polymer guns I own or want to own. Quality build, tack driving accuracy, bet your life reliability and they look good doing all that.

No need to mention HK's customer service either. In seventeen years I've never needed them. Neither has anyone else I know who owns them. Can't say that about other manufacturers.

Good luck with your decision! Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI

I love my 4506 and found a clean 4516-1 w box and mags. Is $675 too much? What shouls a clean excellent 4516 run?


All these stories are great!

Can anyone tell me if it is legal to mount/slide a vertical forgrip on a handgun, that is without having to secure a tax stamp, etc.

The reason I ask is that I went to an upscale gun store today to take a close look at the HK 45 compact and USP compact. The clerk showed me a spring loaded, retractable vertical foregrip that would slide right on to the HK accessory rail. I ask him if you need to register something this as a AOW with BATF. He checked with higher up sources in the store and confirmed to me that it does not need to be registered. Can someone give me a validity check on this. If it does not need to be registered, then I might go ahead a trade my 4516-2 in for an HK with integrated accessory rail and slide-on foregrip

Thanks

Not sure what your sample size is, but there are plenty of folks that have needed HK service and report being sorely disappointed by the 'HK attitude' they receive in place of the sort mfg. experience you receive seem from someone like say S&W. Look over at M4carbine and you will find a mixture of love and hate for HK. Here is a copy and pasted example typical of fair number of poster's customer service experience.

"Interesting. I love Hk guns but I will not buy any due to the horrific customer service I have witness dealing with damaged guns. Private if you are LOE/Govt or in the gun business then you are usually covered otherwise private citizens having problems with a gun is usually not. They like to use the line "our guns are the best because we engneer them to be the best so if the customer had the firearm break they must have used it improperly to break it so it is not covered." Yes I actually was told that from HK and heard it ten years ago when I went through an Armorers course back at Sterling, Va. Pitty I like thier guns. I'm sure it will be back very soon."

Don't get me wrong, I get the appeal of HK, but some of the weapons are not the most ergonomic, the triggers are almost never better than something you have to learn to deal with, and while they can be found on the used market, new HK gun, mags and parts are almost alway sold at a pretty big premium, and while I think some of that premium is reflected (to a degree) in the product delivered, I do feel there is an HK surcharge above and beyond what that covers.