Sight Adjustment

[GaryS]

I took my both of my 457s to the range today. I planned to split the shooting between the TDA and DAO versions.

First up was the TDA. My last trip with the TDA version was less than successful as the gun placed rounds down and to my left.

This time out, I decided to work on grip, stance, and sight picture to see what was going on.

My first 50 rounds were better than my last outing (sorry, no pictures), but still a slight down and left point of impact.

My next 50 were better, hitting just to the left of the X on my B27 target.

The last 50 were not as good, in part because my arms were getting a bit tired.

My first thought is always the shooter not the gun when this type of thing happens. This time, I'm not sure. Last time out with the 457DAO I was hitting higher and more to the center. Very satisfactory performance from the gun and the shooter.

So, other than one being TDA and one being DAO, what is different.

After my first range trip, I took a side by side picture of the slides.



As you can see the TDA slide is on the right, the DAO on the left.

You can also see that the slide on the TDA gun is a bit more set to the left than the DAO. I've never touched either, so these are how I got them.

I did some Internet research and if I understood correctly, to get the gun to shoot more to the right, I should move the rear sight to the right. That's sort of counter intuitive, which is why I thought I'd ask the 3rd Gen brain trust before I did anything.

One thing I was thinking of doing was swapping slides. I'd put the DAO slide on the TDA frame. I'd use the TDA barrel, recoil spring, and guide rod.

I'd have a TDA gun, but without the safety/decocker. Not a configuration I'd carry, but sufficient for testing.

If that combination shoots near point of aim, then I'll think about adjusting the rear sight.

As always, opinions are welcome.

[sar4937]

The rear sight moves the same direction as the shot does.

[GaryS]

Thanks. So, if it's hitting to MY left and I want the point of impact to move to the right, then I should move the rear sight to the right? Right?

Originally Posted by sar4937

The rear sight moves the same direction as the shot does.

[Infidel137]

Right.

[GaryS]

Well, that hopefully will fix the problem.

Of course now I need advice on sight pushers. I don't mind buying one, but don't want to pay more than I did for the gun.

Originally Posted by Infidel137

Right.

[sar4937]

The image is tough to make out, but it is possible to adjust some front sights, these would move the opposite way the shot moves. On stainless guns I have used a brass or aluminum drift punch, you have to put the slide in a vise without marring it. This will mar a coated slide. Aesthetically, it looks better to not have the rear sight too far one direction, so you can split the adjustment between the two sights. Hopefully, your will not need more than a slight adjustment.

[Pisgah]

By your description it is plain that lack of a consistent grip and trigger technique is at least a part of your problem. Before moving anything I would suggest some quality time doing some dry fire practice. Making sure the gun is unloaded, pick a small target, line up your sights on it, and as you fire the gun focus on that front sight and what direction it moves. On your TDA gun, do this in both SA and DA modes. Using this as a diagnostic tool you may be able to modify your grip and trigger technique and correct most if not all of your difficulty without needing sight adjustment.

[linde]

Originally Posted by GaryS

. . . I did some Internet research and if I understood correctly, to get the gun to shoot more to the right, I should move the rear sight to the right. That's sort of counter intuitive, which is why I thought I'd ask the 3rd Gen brain trust before I did anything . . .

Others have correctly answered your question but thought I'd add a technique for sight adjustment I taught our sons when intuition didn't come thru . . . it's similar to the technique we used to first determine their dominant eye.

Picking out a distant target, hold up both index fingers in a sight alignment pose . . . pretend the left finger is the front sight and hold it at arms length . . . pretend the right finger is the rear sight and hold it about six inches from your dominant eye.

Holding that sight alignment pose, move your front sight finger in the direction you want to move the muzzle and thus move the strike of the bullet . . . it then becomes obvious which direction you need to move the the rear sight finger (and thus the rear sight) to re-establish correct sight alignment.

Rest assured you're not alone on that counter-intuitive reaction to adjusting rear sights. Hope this helps those new shooters here on the forum.

Russ

[GaryS]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

I'm sure that the I'm part of the issue, but I'm not convinced it's all operator error. Which is why I want to do the slide swap to see what, if anything, that changes.

Originally Posted by linde

Others have correctly answered your question but thought I'd add a technique for sight adjustment I taught our sons when intuition didn't come thru . . . it's similar to the technique we used to first determine their dominant eye.

Picking out a distant target, hold up both index fingers in a sight alignment pose . . . pretend the left finger is the front sight and hold it at arms length . . . pretend the right finger is the rear sight and hold it about six inches from your dominant eye.

Holding that sight alignment pose, move your front sight finger in the direction you want to move the muzzle and thus move the strike of the bullet . . . it then becomes obvious which direction you need to move the the rear sight finger (and thus the rear sight) to re-establish correct sight alignment.

Rest assured you're not alone on that counter-intuitive reaction to adjusting rear sights. Hope this helps those new shooters here on the forum.

Russ

[GaryS]

I can put the slide in a vice with appropriate padding and not mar the finish. At least I think so.

I have a brass drift, and a plastic one too for that matter. Plus an assortment of light to med weight brass hammers. Since the sights are plastic, I want to be careful of them as well.

Which is why I'm thinking of buying a sight pusher.

Gary

Originally Posted by sar4937

The image is tough to make out, but it is possible to adjust some front sights, these would move the opposite way the shot moves. On stainless guns I have used a brass or aluminum drift punch, you have to put the slide in a vise without marring it. This will mar a coated slide. Aesthetically, it looks better to not have the rear sight too far one direction, so you can split the adjustment between the two sights. Hopefully, your will not need more than a slight adjustment.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Which is why I'm thinking of buying a sight pusher.

You can borrow mine anytime... but do you really need one for plastic sights? I don't know... it's why I'm asking.

[GaryS]

I don't know either. The plastic ones aren't anchored like the Novaks on my 39xx guns. They are easy to move, but I don't want to damage the sight.

A lot of good advice in this thread, thanks everyone.

Originally Posted by TTSH

You can borrow mine anytime... but do you really need one for plastic sights? I don't know... it's why I'm asking.

[vigil617]

We can share that sight pusher, Gary, and go halves on it. I shoot low and left too.

[JohnHL]

Hi, Gary!

I was away for a couple of days.

Yes, the rear sight moves in the same direction you want the group to move.

Push the rear sight to the right to make the group move to the right.

From your picture it looks like the rear sight is pushed a little left of center.

No special tools are needed with the plastic rear sights.
A lot of them will move with thumb pressure!

If it's tight, a plastic or brass drift and light taps should move it easily.

John

[GaryS]

I got to the range with both 457s today. Weather was nice, so I brought along 150 rounds of UMC 230gr FMJ. Same ammunition I used previously so that I only had one variable.

First up. The TDA gun that shoot low and to the left. 21 rounds downrange and it still shoots low and to the left.

Next up. The DAO gun, also 21 rounds. Shoots midline, but a bit low. So, the low part is humanware, not hardware.

First test. Swapped the barrel and recoil spring from the TDA gun into the DAO slide. The only variable now was the sights. I had a TDA gun, but no way to decock it, so it was effectively a SA.

21 rounds and the gun shot midline, but a bit low. Okay, that tells me that there is nothing likely wrong with the gun other than the sights.

Second test, put the TDA slide with the DAO barrel and recoil spring (Got that!) on the DAO frame. Now I had a DAO gun but with a safety. No way to fire it SA. 21 rounds downrange, and the gun shot to the left and a bit low.

Okay, now for the sight adjustment. I took both guns apart and reassembled the DAO gun. I put that aside and put the TDA frame on the shooting bench. I used a brass hammer and plastic drift to tap the rear sight back towards center line. Not very scientific, but I just eyeballed the sights until there appeared to be the same amount of space on both sides of it.

Put everything back to together and put 21 rounds through it. Shoots pretty much to midline and... a bit low. It might need a slight bit of movement to the right, but I'm inclined to just leave it alone for now.

I finished up the second box of 50, for those keeping count, and was pretty happy with the results. Oh, I changed targets between each series of tests so that I had a clean target for each variable.

I'm happy with the performance of the TDA gun. I also need to work on my sight alignment, especially in SA, since I tend to pull a bit low. Not horribly low, but still a bit low.

I had run out of targets, so I put 50 rounds DAO through the same one, but aimed higher on the target.

Funny thing about that. After about 25 rounds or so, the trigger became hard to pull. I wondered if something broke inside, so I switched to left hand shooting. No, easier pull with left hand shooting, and not bad accuracy.

My conclusion is that firing a lot of DAO with that long trigger pull is tiring to the forearm muscles. That might be part of the reason why S&W built the "real" DAO guns with that partially staged trigger. This might also be why NYPD wanted a longer trigger pull on the 3914DAO. As a "safety" feature.

That has me wondering about main spring weight on my DAO gun. Have to think about that a bit.

Anyway, I think the TDA gun sight issue is fixed. The gun is easy to shoot, shoots to midline, and is acceptable for SD use. The DAO gun is also acceptable for SD, even with a longer trigger pull.

[JohnHL]

Good job, Gary!

I'm glad you got the sights dialed in.

We all fight flinch, but by your description and pictures, it looked to me like a sight misalignment issue.

And congratulations on your concise methodology.

Back when we were racing, we adhered to a few maxims, a couple of which were:

"Only change one thing at a time so a person can determine what helps and what doesn't."

"A person should bring his theories and his stopwatch (targets) to the track (range) and if an improvement is not realized, it is probably not the stopwatch (targets) that are wrong."

And I also agree that a lot of DA trigger pulling can be tiresome.
I notice that with DA dry-fire practice.

Hammer spurs and single action are anathema to big city chiefs and politicians because it suggests an offensive move and they wish to defend the actions of their officers as, well, defensive.

I still think that DAO can be useful in a "Holy shoot!" situation, as there's little else to remember other than aim and fire.

As others have observed, "It's the the original point and click interface!"

John

[GaryS]

Thanks. I learned my methodology from years of trouble shooting electronics, automobiles, and computers. Well, people too, but that's a different story.

I'm pleased with the performance of both 457s. The TDA one shoots much more closely to where it should. As I said, a slight bit more adjustment of the rear might be in order. Emphasis should be on slight. OTOH, I don't want to "fix it until I break it", so I'm inclined to leave it alone for now and work on my shooting basics.

Good thing I got a good deal on .45ACP aluminum cased ammo and can get more.

There is a difference between 9mm and .45 ACP recoil.

I can see myself carrying one of these more often.

I'm also inclined not to change the main spring for a lighter weight one. I'm not going to put 150 rounds through on most range trips. I didn't even plan to shoot more than 100 today, but after the sight adjustment the 457TDA just ran so well that I kept shooting it. The DAO shot well to, just the trigger pull takes more getting used to.

Thanks also for your suggestions and advice.

Originally Posted by JohnHL

Good job, Gary!

I'm glad you got the sights dialed in.

We all fight flinch, but by your description and pictures, it looked to me like a sight misalignment issue.

And congratulations on your concise methodology.

Back when we were racing, we adhered to a few maxims, a couple of which were:

"Only change one thing at a time so a person can determine what helps and what doesn't."

"A person should bring his theories and his stopwatch (targets) to the track (range) and if an improvement is not realized, it is probably not the stopwatch (targets) that are wrong."

And I also agree that a lot of DA trigger pulling can be tiresome.
I notice that with DA dry-fire practice.

Hammer spurs and single action are anathema to big city chiefs and politicians because it suggests an offensive move and they wish to defend the actions of their officers as, well, defensive.

I still think that DAO can be useful in a "Holy shoot!" situation, as there's little else to remember other than aim and fire.

As others have observed, "It's the the original point and click interface!"

John

[JohnHL]

You're welcome.

Thanks for the share.

John