I just bought a 3913 with supposedly 200 rounds through it.
When hand cycling ammo through it, it really closes hard. The resistance is when the base of the shell contacts the extractor. The knife edge of the extractor is digging into the grove of the shell and the spring is very, very stiff. The extractor moves fully. Wolff says the spring is 6 lb. standard, but wow what a stiff 6 lbs. The resistance is such that the recoil spring won't bring the slide fully closed without help when slow hand cycling. Sling shot will close it fully. I have never seen such resistance with a Smith.

I am thinking that I need to get the small files out and trim the extractor.
I will also get new Wolff springs for the extractor and a heavier recoil spring.

Try this first, lock slide back, insert loaded magazine, release slide. Do not follow slide with your hand let it fly. An automatic pistol is not meant to be "slow hand cycled" the parts are supposed to function with a certain degree of authority.

Mack, rightly or wrongly, I call that sling shot. Yes it will close then with a snap when the shell is forced up. It is a lot more resistance than I am used to. With my other 3rd Gen Smith, I cannot even feel the shell being chambered.

I fired my 3913 for the first time today. It repeatedly failed to chamber all the way with different loads. A nudge at the back of the slide pushed it into battery but it seemed to stop when the round was trying to slide up under the extractor. Any advice for me?

Clean and lube the gun, new stock rate recoil spring, try again.

"Closing" issues, when hand-cycling rounds in the gun? Really?

Some thoughts ...

Don't use live rounds for bench checks. Use properly sized Dummy rounds.

Dummy rounds not only help prevent a potential "mistake" (negligent discharge), but prevent unnecessary damage to live ammunition which could compromise functioning at the least (case rim damage, extraction& feeding failures, etc), and may create the potential for what's sometimes called an "over-pressure event" due to bullet setback (think catastrophic failure that could damage the gun and/or injure the shooter - perhaps seriously or even fatally).

Don't compare how a particular pistol may feel when "slowly hand-cycling it". It's intended to work that way. It's intended to operate normally when being fired.

Don't compare how a compact pistol with a slightly shorter slide & barrel may function, mechanically, from a perspective of "leverage" while cycling, to a slightly larger version (even by only half an inch).

Don't start taking files to extractors. Really. This isn't a 1911. The hooks aren't filed, stoned or otherwise "adjusted" by technicians or armorers when being installed in guns. (They've been revised a bit over the years to offer optimal feeding, using a wider range of commercial ammo, though.)

The only filing that typically needs to be done is on the adjustment pad (and this filing work is checked by use of a Go/No-Go bar gauge, not Dummy rounds, shaking the slide, etc). There's a rare exception involving some extractor tails in some of the oldest 3rd guns, maybe, but I've never talked to another armorer that ever ran into such a gun/extractor combination. It's just been mentioned in passing during some earlier armorer classes. Not the hooks, but a spot on the tails.

Don't start changing extractor springs unless you know what you're doing, meaning you have the knowledge, training & experience ... and you have actual reason to do so. FWIW, just because one aftermarket spring maker may measure the tension of their springs using one method, applying a "weight rating", that doesn't mean that's how S&W applies ratings to their springs (also supplied by a vendor).

S&W has a recommended tension "weight" measurement for checking the tension of the pivoting extractors used in their 3rd gen guns. The "weight measurement" they use is checked with a force dial gauge, checking for a reading at the first sign of deflection of the extractor when placed under load (using the tool they sell to armorers). The recommended spring tension can vary within an expected range, and some optional springs are available to armorers to help get any particular pistol within the normally recommended range. This can allow a repair tech, gunsmith or armorer to resolve some issues that might occur with a particular pistol (meaning tolerance stack among various parts in a specific gun), and taking into consideration the influences presented by any particular shooter and ammunition combination.

A spring which provides too much tension may cause feeding problems, and one which is too light may cause extraction problems.

Older slides had their extractor spring holes machined by equipment controlled by an operator, unlike the newer CNC equipment (which can also be self-regulating in identifying a dulling cutter, whereas the older equipment relied on the operator being aware of things). That may result in some extractor spring holes varying a bit in dimensions, such as depth of the hole and/or the shape at the bottom (which can change the "tension" of a spring if it has to be compressed more in one slide than is typically expected).

Of course, even the newer TSW guns, built on the latest CNC equipment, may have the occasional manufacturing hiccup occur. We had a TSW slide (a .40 gun) that just wouldn't give enough tension for the extractor spring, checking it with the dial gauge, when the standard production spring was used, even when a couple of those springs were tried. Failures-to-extract occurred (which is the reason it came to my attention in the first place), and the spring tension fell below the minimum recommended reading for the different "standard" springs.

I ended up having to use one of the heavier optional springs to resolve the issue. The heavier spring resulted in a reading which fell within the normal tension (weight) range, and the gun fed, fired, extracted & ejected as intended afterward. problem solved. The extractor had been fitted just fine, but the "problem" was caused by an extractor spring which gave insufficient tension in that gun.

I've previously run heavier recoil springs in 3913/6906's. Some thousands of rounds to see how things ran using heavier springs. I no longer do so. Many more thousands of rounds using factory springs have given me enough reason to stay with the standard rated recoil springs sold by the factory (very affordably, I might add). I use the standard factory recoil springs. Ditto mag springs in the single column 39XX guns.

When you start changing the springs the engineers designed to be used in the guns ... and especially when you think about breaking out files to "fix" something ... you may risk experiencing less-than-optimal functioning & operation.

No reason to "fix something until it's broken". Really.

If you do something to ruin how the gun works, meaning how it's supposed to work (not just according to something you may like to feel is normal) you'll have to pay either a gunsmith or a factory tech to repair your "fix". That doesn't take into consideration the potential for frustration, as well as what might happen if the gun actually doesn't safely work as designed when you're shooting it at the range, or may desperately need it for a defensive situation.

Presuming the 3913 is in normal operating condition (not visibly damaged), the recoil & magazine springs are in good condition (I'd replace both in any used 3rd gen gun I bought, myself, using factory springs as the replacements), and the gun is properly clean and lubricated ... I'd shoot the gun with fresh factory 9mm ammunition, made by one of the major American ammo companies ... and if it feeds & functions normally during live-fire, I'd leave well enough alone.

Just my thoughts. I'm an owner & shooter of a late production 3913, myself, as well as an armorer for 3rd gen S&W's (4 classes, meaning some recerts to keep current).

Congrats on finding a low-mileage 3913. Outstanding compact 9's. Easily among the best models S&W has ever produced, if not the best.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Feeding issues aside, I was very, very impressed with the 3913. Mine is incredibly accurate.

Hundgunner356, I have a new spring kit from Wolff on the way. I'm going to replace the recoil spring and hammer spring with new factory rate springs and try again.

What ammunition were you using?

How old is the recoil spring?

How old are the mag springs?

How well was the pistol lubricated?

Is the barrel chamber clean? No bits of anything stuck to the chamber wall?

Has the extractor slot ever been exposed to a lot of liquid solvent or CLP so that it could run inside the recess (under the extractor) and accumulate debris, fouling, etc under the tail?

Typically, the common problems that can result in a failure of the slide to close into battery can involve a weakened or damaged recoil spring; a damaged or worn extractor; a heavy extractor spring (or an accumulation of gunk under the tail that would interfere with extractor spring compression, preventing the extractor's tail from pivoting inward far enough to allow normal feeding - case movement up the breech face).

Sure, insufficient lubrication and/or a dirty chamber (which may prevent full cartridge chambering) can sometimes be involved, as well as ammunition which might have dimensional/tolerance issues.

Nothing at all wrong with sticking to the stock, factory-provided springs in these compact guns. Their cost is pretty reasonable, too.

Just some thoughts to consider.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Thanks fastbolt. I can't answer most of those questions. It was a California DOC weapon I recently purchased. The ammo was my own reloads which are good quality and work great in my other weapons and ammo from Mountaineer Custom Cartridge which is a local manufacturer of high quality ammo. I did not clean or lube the weapon before shooting it. I'm going to clean, inspect and lube the weapon tonight. I'll post any findings.

Joninwv,
You can take the advice of fastbolt to the bank! Heed his advice and all will be well.
If you continue to have problems......Your 3913 is a 3rd gen gun and therefore has a lifetime warranty on it. Send it to S&W and let them take VERY good care of you.

Randy

Last night I gave my 3913 as good cleaning and lube. The extractor seems slightly stiffer then the extractor on my 5906. It also seems to move freely but I did spray some cleaner behind it to flush out anything that may be impeding it. I should get my new springs this week so I'll change them out and see how that goes. Does anyone know how difficult it is to change out a hammer spring? I know changing the extractor spring isn't recommended so I'll leave that one alone but I would like to change the recoil spring and hammer spring. If it doesn't work this time I'll probably just call up Novak's and drop it off for a reliability package.

I've never had to replace a factory mainspring (hammer) in a S&W 3rd gen because it was worn out. I helped support a few hundred early 3rd gen guns that were used out to 16-18+ years, too. I've seen extractor springs wear out by then, though.

Recoil springs? Yes. The factory tells LE armorers to replace recoil & mag springs either every 5 years or every 5,000 rounds (for duty guns that are left loaded). I'm a bit more conservative than that, replacing the recoil spring in my 3913 every 2,500 - 3,000 rounds. Then again, I shoot a lot of +P and +P+ loads (issued).

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Good. I won't mess with the hammer spring then. I do think the extractor could use a very light breaking of the sharp edges and maybe a little bit of polishing. That in conjunction with a new recoil spring may hopefully take care of it.

I'd strongly resist the urge to "break the sharp edges" or "polish" a S&W pivoting 3rd gen extractor. Really.

That's just me, though.

You might bear in mind that replacing a 3rd gen extractor ... (if it's "improved" to the point if creates a problem where none previously actually existed) ... typically requires a trip back to the factory, an authorized repair center or a gunsmith familiar with the guns. It requires a bar gauge ($70 tool for Go/No-Go check of extractor hook reach) and a force dial gauge ($150 tool to check extractor spring tension range). Not exactly a "kitchen table gunsmithing" project.

Your call. Your gun. Your time & money.

This isn't a 1911, you know.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

So be it. I'll do the prudent thing and go in stages. Recoil spring first. If there still seems to be a hangup it will get a trip to Novak's about an hour from here for a reliability package.

BTW, I sold a 1911 to buy the 3913. Thank God its no 1911.

Probably a safe way to proceed.

Considering Wayne Novak's familiarity with the 3913 ...

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I am bringing this thread up from the dead because I am having the exact same symptoms with a 3914LS. This is a gun that my GF recently purchased and she is very frustrated because she loves it and it just doesn't seem to want to work for her.

I have replaced the recoil spring with a new factory spring and I have also replaced all of the springs in the 5 magazines that came with the pistol.

The symptom is exactly as the original poster mentioned. During the last 1/4" is slide movement there is enough resistance from the round slipping under the extractor, that the slide fails to close.

I have taken everything apart to make sure that no gunk is causing the extractor to stick, but nothing seems to make any difference.

Frustrations abound.

Andrew

Ammo being used?

Grip support & stability? Does the gun do the same thing when you shoot it (instead of her)?

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

We have tried Federal American Eagle 115 grain FMJ and Aquila 124 grain FMJ. The ammo seems to make little difference.

The gun cycles fine when I shoot it, but it doesn't seem to work for her and her grip. She was taught to shoot with a relatively light grip, which thus far has not been a problem with her Beretta PX4 Storm.

This is after all a "Lady Smith" so presumably it should work for women that will tend to have a softer grip than men.

Thank you for your help.

Andrew

Dunno about the Aquila ammo. It's not uncommon for some of the 'budget' 115gr loads to be a bit on the lower end of the power range, though, which can contribute to the potential for grip stability issues to interfere with feeding and/or ejection. (Usually called limp-wristing, but it's not just a relaxed or 'broken' wrist which can fail to support the frame during recoil, as a grip which is too relaxed at the wrong moment can become problematic for some shooters).

I could see how being taught to shoot with a "light grip" could be problematic for some pistols.

The LadySmith 3913 looks "pretty", but it's not otherwise different when it comes to having to firmly support the frame during the critical moments of recoil so the slide can make its full run at the intended velocity.

Does it still have the factory delrin grip? if it does, you might consider trying the Hogue grips. That really seemed to help our smaller shooters of diminutive stature and somewhat lesser grip strength using 3913's.

Grip issues (either relaxed grip or an unlocked wrist) are weird, though. Some folks can't 'limp-wrist' a pistol regardless of how hard they try to do so, and others can do it at will ... and others only seem to experience it with an unpredictable range and selection of pistols.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt,

Thank you for the tips. I took the pistol completely apart and cleaned it very well. It was fairly gunky inside the frame although the firing pin passage was not too bad. I dried all of the components and re-assembled everything and lubed all of the moving parts.

I will suggest the Hogue grips to her, but she may resist. She has small hands and part of the reason that she likes the 3913/14 is that it fits her hands perfectly.

Do you have any suggestions for ammo? Keep in mind that the purpose of this pistol is to be her EDC. She needs to find ammo that she can practice with reliably and then find ammo that she can be comfortable enough to trust her life with...

Thanks again, you've been extremely helpful!!!

Andrew

FWIW, armorers are taught to leave the internal parts of the frame dry, without lubrication. The exception is the hammer, which can receive a small drop of oil on each side where it rubs within the frame. Not enough for it to run off and migrate to places other than the flats of the hammer inside the frame. Excessive lubrication can attract fouling & debris and sometimes accumulate into a sludge. This sludge can interfere with the intended movement of the parts (like the sear, drawbar, disconnector, etc). I had to de-gunk (technical term ) a 4566TSW because of an excessive amount of solvent/lube which had accumulated around the sear, hardening into a nasty mixture which prevented the sear from freely moving. It ended up being brought to my attention because the hammer started following the slide (sear couldn't snap back quickly enough to catch the single action notches on the hammer and hold it cocked during live fire). Once I cleaned the gun the "problem" disappeared and the gun worked just fine. The sear spring, sear & hammer all appeared in good condition. Just too dirty and fouled with a nasty sludge that gummed things up.

Understandable. The Hogue grips will add just a bit of extra thickness and "meat" to the backstrap area. It might adversely affect trigger reach. However, a few of our females with small hands still found their 3913's to fit fine in their hands. It's a case-by-case determination, though.

Have you tried any of the 147gr JHP's? Maybe even the 124gr Gold Dot or Golden Sabre (either the standard pressure loads or the +P versions of either). Sometimes a slightly higher pressure round, which can produce a bit more slide velocity, might help mitigate a minor grip stability issue ... but the downside might be a little more felt recoil. Just depends on the shooter. Felt recoil is a really subjective thing.

The shooter-related influence, being the grip technique and how well the shooter can hold the frame stable during recoil, can often be the most common cause of issues like this, though. It's not that the shooter needs to hold the gun in a "death grip" (a nicely consistently firm handshake grip seems to work for most folks), but keeping the wrist locked behind the grip is important.

If the wrist "breaks" either side-to-side (trying to angle the strong-hand wrist to "center" the gun in front of the shooter), or up-and-down (angling/bending the wrist to "lift" the gun up into the sight plane without raising the arm so the shooter's forearm is behind - and supporting - the wrist/grip) ... grip stability issues might result. Depends on the shooter.

Locking the wrist so the forearm is straight behind it, and then adopting a slightly "forward" stance (leaning the upper body somewhat forward, and NOT allowing the upper body/shoulders to lean backward under recoil) can usually help a number of folks when it comes to supporting the gun during recoil.

If someone doesn't maintain "follow-through" on their grip through their trigger press (versus holding on and then suddenly slightly relaxing as they think the gun is about to fire), then the frame might not remain firmly positioned and stable so the slide can travel fully rearward, at its intended and proper velocity ... and then return forward, under the intended spring tension, stripping a round from the magazine, feeding it into the chamber and then allowing the slide & barrel to continue forward and lock into battery.

A grip which is neither firm enough, nor supported by a locked wrist/forearm to the degree necessary, can sometimes "rob" the recoil spring of its ability to work as intended in feeding, chambering and locking up into battery. To put it simply, it can throw off the feeding timing.

Naturally, some attention to enhancing some grip & forearm strength is helpful to a lot of folks, regardless of their gender.

It's not possible to diagnose and give any sort of a definitive answer to theses sorts of things online. It really requires being present to observe a shooter to see the totality of what's happening with the particular shooter/gun/ammo combination. Sorry.

Just my thoughts in general, based upon what I've experienced and observed with other shooters as an instructor over the years.

Wish I could help, but I can't pretend to give you the "definitive answer" to your questions via an online discussion.

If I could, I'd have requested being able to "telecommute" when working as an instructor (safer, at times ) ... except when I wanted to put in some trigger time, of course. ).

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt,

Thank you again for the great information!

We actually went to the range again last night and there were considerably less problems. She shot about 150 rounds of both the 115 grain Federal and the 124 grain Aguila and there wasn't a single case of failure to go to battery.

One of the guys at the range actually gave some advice that was almost word for word what you said in regards to grip, wrist firmness, and stance. I think that pep-talk did as much for the reliable operation as anything that I actually did to the gun. LOL

The range also had a Hogue rubber grip sleeve that they let us try. She actually liked how it felt but said she would prefer a set of full grips. I am going to get a set and that should help with greater control.

Andrew

Glad to hear it's better.

A solid grip (doesn't have to be a white-knuckled death grip), proper lubrication, and recoil & mag springs in good condition can do a lot to resolve a number of "gun problems".

Bear in mind the low-cost, "budget" ammo sometimes does produce power levels that might run at the lower end of the normal range, and might not produce the slide velocities of some of the better quality (albeit usually more expensive) ammo, though. Personally, I tend to stay with ammo made by one of the major American companies who have gained experience making training & duty ammo for LE/Gov customers.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I received my replacement recoil spring and magazine springs today. The recoil spring was about 1/2 inch shorter then the replacement and the new one is noticeably stiffer. The magazine springs were also shorter than the new ones by about a 1/2 inch. I suspect my problem may be solved. My next trip to the range should tell.

Okay. Hope it works out for you.

FWIW, S&W used to tell armorers that once a recoil spring reached 4 or more coils less in length compared to a new spring, it was probably wise to replace it. Now they just give a time in-service/rounds-fired replacement recommendation (5yrs left loaded/5K rounds).

I've seen 3913/CS9 mag springs still running well after becoming even shorter than losing half an inch of free length. They often will become at least a coil's length shorter just being loaded over a short time, but spring makers will generally tell you the springs are expected to take an initial 'set' when used. Once they start to get a lot shorter, or fail to lift the follower to lock the slide on an empty mag, or lift rounds fast enough for proper feeding timing ... you're ready for a new spring.

I like to replace my mag springs before they exhibit symptoms of having become too weak for normal function. The reason is I can't predict where that "first" symptom may occur ... on the range, or outside the range (for real). I'm usually a bit more conservative in my recoil & mag spring replacement intervals than that recommended by the factory. That's just me, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I wasn't too worried about the mag springs. They seemed to be doing the job but I bought a new mag so I put new springs in the old ones just to make them all even. I've never had much issues with mag springs in any of my pistols come to think of it. I just figured since I didn't know how old they were I might as well replace them. I probably should have done that with the recoil spring before I took it out the first time.

Sounds like you have a pretty decent range there, too.

I shot around 100 rounds through my 3913 today. They new spring did the trick. It are everything and shot FANTASTIC. What a great pistol.

Good to hear.

Optimal feeding & functioning is pretty dependent on recoil & magazine springs remaining in good condition, as well as good condition magazines (lips, followers, etc).

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Yup. I bought one new mag and new mag springs for the others. I numbered the mags too. Mag 1 would nosedive the first round into the feed ramp when shooting the 147gr WWB JHP. Ball fed fine. The other two mags had no problems at all. Now I just need to install night sights, and shoot a couple boxes of my carry ammo and its ready to rock. Thanks for your input guys.

Was that before or after the new spring?

If after, was that when releasing the slide by hand to feed the first round from the mag, or using the slide stop lever? (If by hand, on the first round, try using the slide stop lever ... or else make sure you pull the slide all the way back and then briskly & completely release the slide to run forward to pick up the round. Any hesitation to release the slide which results in "easing" it forward can cause a nose-dive feeding stoppage on the first round (with a new, heavy spring).

I've fed and fired many tens of thousands of rounds of the USA9JHP2 through 3rd gen guns over the years, including a lot of that through my own 3913 & CS9, as well as having watched it fired through other 3913's & CS9's.

If it was a stoppage induced just during feeding the first round,manually, it's not the same thing as what generally happens during live-fire, when the slide is running at its normal velocity back & forward.

Of course, it's still possible for the occasional shooter to exhibit a momentary problem with grip technique/stability and induce a shooter-caused issue now and again, but the 3rd gen guns seem pretty tolerant of such things, in my experience, as long as good ammo is being used and the gun is clean, well maintained & properly lubricated.

Then again, the "white box" stuff is bargain, low-cost ammo, and it pays to keep an eye out for an occasional QC issues that might affect things ...

USA9JHP2 147gr JHP: (clickable thumbnails)

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Sadly I numbered my magazine but I didn't keep track of which was the new mag and which were the two I put the new springs into. I did note which on had the problem though. Normally I dropped the slide using the slide catch. I'll have to try it with the "slingshot" next time to see if that takes care of it. In general it will be a range mag until it starts to work better.

I wanted to give everyone that is interested a quick update. Last week I installed a set of Hogue rubber grips on her 3914LS. I don't know why people complain about the fit and finish of these grips. Yes, they did require a little hand fitting to make them fit "just right" but it took a whole 5 minutes. Anyway, the grips felt great and she was feeling good about them as well.

Today we went to the range and she put about 100 rounds through it without any problems. We used both the Federal 115 grain FMJ and the Aguila 124 grain FMJ. No failures of any kind and she said that the felt recoil was less and she had better control. Good stuff.

Thank you all again for the helpful comments and suggestions.

Andrew

P.S. I am still in love with my 4516-2 and my Seecamp is much happier with the Speer Gold Dots.