Help! Is it Me or is it the Gun? Md 4516-2

[loeman]

18DAIs post regarding a long term evaluation of a 4516 no dash got me thinking about my 4516-2. It's a gun I want to love but don't. I bought it new in 1998 and have NEVER been happy with my accuracy with this gun!

I've been regularly shooting handguns since the mid 1970s. I'm not an expert marksman but I'm competent. I shoot other 45s with good to excellent results. I'm very happy with my 4506 no dash, my Series 70 Gold Cup and my buddies HK. But when it comes to my 4516-2, I go home frustrated. Here's what I experience with this gun.

At any distance my groups are high ( about 3 inches) and right (about 3 inches). The groups are tight but off target. What's up with this? Is it the shorter sight radius or is there something wrong with the gun. I shoot my other semis and revolvers just fine. My good friend borrowed it a few years ago to qualify for his CCW. He didn't like it much either.

Here's where you come in. I know there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and I'm sure you might have some good advice for me. What should I do? Chalk it up as a lemon and sell it? Take it to a gunsmith for some kind of fix? It's a beautiful gun that has never failed to fire or eject, but in my hands it just doesn't measure up.

[kpoesq369]

What load are your using? It sounds strange but the front sights on most guns are set for the "standard" bullet weight. For 45 thats 230, 38 is 158 etc. So a lighter bullet will hit higher. Right/left may be grips. Since it's a shorter frame does it slide in your hand? The panel might be too thin. Had that with my 4566 till I put rubber grips on it, problem was I got used to the fatter grip of my duty 5906.

[loeman]

Great questions Kpoesq269. I shoot standard 230 grain factory ammo of various brands but all with same results and no apparent slide.

However, I didn't even consider (Duhhh) that the grips could be the issue but maybe we're getting somewhere. When my 4516 was brand new I put on a set of Hogue wood grips. I don't even remember firing the gun with the factory stocks. The Hogues feel ok and look great but they do seem a little chunky in my medium sized hands. My 4506, Colt Gold Cup and my buddies HK that all shoot great in my hands are all fitted with the factory issue stocks.

Could be a quick, easy and cheap fix. My 4516 wearing factory stocks will be in my bag for Monday's trip to the range. Thanks for the suggestion.

[18DAI]

Hi loeman,

I hope you don't mind if I respond here rather than the other thread. I have a few questions first in order to form my opinion on your problem with the 4516-2.

Are you left handed? Are you using PMC ammunition? Is the barrel of your 4516-2 clean or can you see copper streaks and build up on the lands and grooves? Are the sights factory original? Are they centered in their respective dovetails?

I would also second the advice of kpoesq369. Dump the factory OEM grips and put some Hogues on that 4516-2. Hogue rubber grips make the 4516's a completely different animal to shoot, for me. Regards 18DAI

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

"The groups are tight but off target. What's up with this?" What's up is that the sights need to be adjusted. If your groups are tight the problems are minor. It is certainly true that different bullets and different grips (whether your grips or the gun's grips) will often affect point of impact. This is one reason why some folks like adjustable sights. However, even sights that are supposedly not adjustable usually are. Some rear sights are dovetailed in and can be moved laterally. It's not as easy to add metal to front sights, but you can discuss possibilities with a gunsmith.

[Chillock]

I don't have experience with the model you are talking about but this is what I have encountered over the years. I had a new 5906 back in the day. My problem was I was always shooting low and to the right. Tight groups no bigger than 3 inches. At the range one day the gunsmith at the range saw my frustration. He asked to see the gun, he adjusted the rear sightly.

After a few mags being fed through I was shooting low but dead center and still kept within a 3 inch group. He made a few calls and sent me to a gun store not far away. They put on different grips until we found one that seemed natural to my hand (not that the originals didn't seem to feel right) the fit was much better than the originals.

Back to the range I went. Dang, what a difference. Dead center, 3 inch groupings, all day long. I think the guy at the range was just as pleased as I was. This is an experience I will never forget. Same guy helped me sight in my Marlin 444 (open sights).

I learned that a good feeling grip is not the same as one that feels natural in my hand. I think it might be hard to explain, but to me there is a difference; I hope it makes sense and you understand what I'm trying to say.

So, something to consider, grip and sights.

[Big Cholla]

Originally Posted by kpoesq369

What load are your using? It sounds strange but the front sights on most guns are set for the "standard" bullet weight. For 45 thats 230, 38 is 158 etc. So a lighter bullet will hit higher. Right/left may be grips. Since it's a shorter frame does it slide in your hand? The panel might be too thin. Had that with my 4566 till I put rubber grips on it, problem was I got used to the fatter grip of my duty 5906.

IMHO, in handguns the weight of a lighter than normal bullet will cause the grouping to move down not up. The reason is that the lighter projectile will cause the apparent recoil to be less causing less muzzle flip before the projectile leaves the barrel therefore hitting the target lower than the normal heavier bullet. Also, the heavier bullet will be slightly slower to accelerate down the barrel taking more time to leave the barrel than the lighter bullet thereby giving the barrel more time to rise slightly more before the bullet leaves the barrel. And the lighter bullet being faster to the target will strike lower because of the natural muzzle rise during firing will have traveled less upward. All of these things are very small inputs, but will contribute to what you are seeing.

By all means get a grip that is the most ergonomically correct for your hand and stance. Adjust either or both of the sights for the left/right group correction. Take a close look at the front sight blade. Is there some small difference in its reflective surface that could cause you to not be seeing it the same way you do your other front sight blades? Last but not least, are you shooting in daylight with the sun in relatively the same position each time? One side of the front sight blade might have a corner with bare metal showing that gives a brighter glare than the rest of the sight that will cause your eye to give an unneeded sight correction while shooting in sunlight. I have seen that quite often here in the West while coaching handgun shooters. ..... Big Cholla

[2K7]

with my factory stock 4013. It is essentially the same single stack gun only in .40 caliber. Same tight group, same pattern right and high. I am left handed.

Put it in a rest to check accuracy….dead center!

My problem was the combination of the grip and my trigger pull.
In less than 200 rounds of ammo later, I have it mastered.

[Denver Dick]

I shoot a number of 3rd Gens, including what I call the short grip types (4516-1, 4516-2, 4013, 4014. 6904 and 6906). When I first started shooting these 3rd Gens, they took some getting use to. They have a shorter sight radius, are difficult to hold, and the 40 and 45 pistols have muzzle flip that can cause some difficulty. I work at shooting 3rd Gens with their original wrap-around grips. It's just a thing with me. All but one of my 19 3rd Gens have the OEM wrap-arounds.

It's been quite a while since I shot my 4516-2, but I'm pretty sure that I'd remember if it didn't shoot well and generally to POA, like all my 3rd Gens. Now, on occasion I've had to drift a rear sight or two a tiny bit, but that's the exception not the rule. I should note that I shoot factory standard ammo or reloads to duplicate same, i.e., not hot stuff with light bullets.

You guys have got me interested, so I'm going to take the -2 out to the range over the next couple of weeks to give it a work out. I'll post photos of the targets. Hopefully they'll not embarrass me . . . I mean the pistol.

[Gunhacker]

I had the same difficulties with adapting to my 4516-1 and I'm convinced it is mostly due to the "lopsided" feeling I get in my hold with the front of the grip being longer, by virtue of the finger extension floor plate of the magazine, than the rear of the grip.

I have no issues at all with any of my other 3rd gens with a full sized grip frame.

If I could figure out a way to modify a set of 4506 grips to shorten them to fit a 4516 where the rear of the grip is flush with the bottom of the magazine, the way the grips are on a 4513/4513TSW, I suspect my issues with shooting my 4516-1 would go away.

Not so much of an issue now that my 4516-1 has been sidelined by a 4566.

[loeman]

Thanks to all who have responded to my plea for help. Here are the answers to your questions. I shoot only factory loads from various manufacturers. I am right handed. My gun is kept scrupulously clean. The sights are the original factory fixed sights that have never been "adjusted" or modified and they seam to be seated perfectly. However, I changed the grips to Hogue wood grips when I bought the gun new in 1998.

I was pleased to read that others have experienced the same or similar problems as me. Several of you have zeroed in on the grips as a possible cause. After reading your thoughts I checked my hand on the Hogue grips and compared it to my grip on the 4506 with the OEM grips. Doing the side by side comparison, it became clear the Hogues are just too big (fat) for my medium sized hand. My first step will be to replace the Hogues with the OEMs that came with the gun. I think I will see immediate improvement. I might get some Hogue rubber grips, but I've read that they are pretty fat too. However, they are cheap and I'd like to try them.

If that isn't the complete cure, I will check into having the rear sights "adjusted".

Thanks again. I have a feeling that I will soon LOVE my 4516-2.

[Catshooter]

loeman,

I would suspect that your thought that it is you rather than the pistol is probably correct.

But, sights can be off. Trying to decide if they are both centered by eye is pretty tough without lots of experience.

As an example, your '16's sights are about six inches apart. If it's hitting three inches right at fifteen yards then your sights are about one tenth of an inch off total. That can be all in one sight or split between them.

Good luck.


Cat

[nocents]

Originally Posted by loeman

Thanks to all who have responded to my plea for help. Here are the answers to your questions. I shoot only factory loads from various manufacturers. I am right handed. My gun is kept scrupulously clean. The sights are the original factory fixed sights that have never been "adjusted" or modified and they seam to be seated perfectly. However, I changed the grips to Hogue wood grips when I bought the gun new in 1998.

I was pleased to read that others have experienced the same or similar problems as me. Several of you have zeroed in on the grips as a possible cause. After reading your thoughts I checked my hand on the Hogue grips and compared it to my grip on the 4506 with the OEM grips. Doing the side by side comparison, it became clear the Hogues are just too big (fat) for my medium sized hand. My first step will be to replace the Hogues with the OEMs that came with the gun. I think I will see immediate improvement. I might get some Hogue rubber grips, but I've read that they are pretty fat too. However, they are cheap and I'd like to try them.

If that isn't the complete cure, I will check into having the rear sights "adjusted".

Thanks again. I have a feeling that I will soon LOVE my 4516-2.

I too had accuracy issues with my 4516-2 and the Hogue rubber grips helped big time....they are fat....and feel even fatter on the 6906 because of the finger grooves.....but I have a huge hand so it's not an issue...it really made a difference on my single stacks even more...good grip surface even if your hand becomes wet....I wasn't going to use them on 3913Nl that i just put into carry service....but...for me...there is that much of a difference with the rubber on....good luck...

[ImjinScout]

I had a similar issue with my 4566tsw, I decided to try the hogue rubber grips knowing they are a little fatter and I have small hands. Wow what a difference they made. I would try the rubber grips as they are not that much money you may be surprised that they feel much better and help to get a better grip on the gun. Good luck with your range trials

[Beerad]

I have a nice 5906 in great shape with food chef
Novak sights. It appears to group low about
3-5 inches. I am aiming with front sight
exactly set level with rear sight ears.
What am I doing wrong?