The "Transitional model" 6450

18DAI · #1 10-09-2013, 11:19 AM

I have not been able to find much information on this model S&W 45. According to where you look there were either "...less than 900 made.." or "...151 hand built by the Performance center..." It was made for RSR at the end of model 645 production and the beginning of the 3rd gen 4506. That much is certain.

The S&W 6450 photos I Googled show 645 hybrid looking guns. All but one have the 4506 Delrin one piece grip. One though is wearing 645 Pachmyars with a 645 backstrap. Confusing.....

I have been looking for a Novak sight equipped 645 for some time. I'd love to find a modified 645 with the sights installed and the undercut trigger guard ala Sokol mods/Novaks full house mods. I want those two modifications on a 645 frame.

I have a slide that was made for a late production 645. It has Novak 3 dot sights installed. I think it may be for a transitional model though. I installed it on a 645 frame. It seemed to fit and function fine. Till I shot it.

When I shot it the slide came back too far and locked up. Sheared the top off the disconnector too. Very disappointing.

So, what am I looking for? I want the 645 grip frame and slide, with Novak sights, the 4506 undercut trigger guard and 4506 decockers. What model fits that bill? Regards 18DAI

timn8er · #2 10-09-2013, 04:05 PM

The Eternal Quest for the perfect gun, eh? Happily, I don't know any better, so I'm happy with a lot less!

Badkarma 1 · #3 10-09-2013, 09:32 PM

Did a little lookin about, found a thread over at Glock talk where a guy showed his 6450. It looks for all intents like a very early 4506 that was made for RSR.
You might want to find a 645 and have it rebuilt to your specs, the undercut trigger guard would be the hard part, and I wonder if 4506 decocker/safety will fit a 645 slide?
Might be time to hit the auction sites.
Dale

BUFF · #4 10-10-2013, 11:02 AM

I have what is stamped a Model 645 on the gun but Model 6450 on the box, basically the 4506 slide on a 645 frame. Not an RSR gun. S/N TBR95xx. I bought it new September, 1988. Still as new in box with all but the warranty card. If you are interested in maybe buying it, I can dig it out and describe it better. (Been a while since I've seen it.)

18DAI · #5 10-10-2013, 11:47 AM

BUFF, PM sent!

Badkarma 1 I saw those pics too. I'm pretty sure the 6450's had the 3rd gen Delrin wrap around grip. BUT - as BUFF's gun may illustrate, I think there were some late production - very end of 645 production PRIOR to the "transitional" models (which essentially were parts guns built to use up left over parts) - 645's which had 645 frames and early 4506 slides.

I watch Gunbroker and other auction boards fairly regularly. In the last three years I've seen three WELL USED 645's which had what appeared to be 645 frames with slides sporting early Novak Low Mount sights. I was out bid on the one in good shape that I thought I might be able to afford. The other two were messed up pretty badly. Abuse, not normal use. I passed on those. All of them were rollmarked 645 on the frame. All had TB_ serials.

The majority of 645's I've come across, including the one I own have TA_ serials. I'm pretty sure the last of the breed, and the early 4506 no dash used TB_ serial prefix's.

The 6450, 6451 and 6452 command some high premiums. Too high IMO for what amounts to parts guns. But I'm a shooter/end user not a collector. I guess historically, being made in short numbers they are worth a premium to a collector.

If one ever wanders down into this public area we should ask him.

Yes timn8er it is a bit of a quest I suppose. But not eternal as there are limits to me, my funds and my interest.

Nor is it for the "perfect gun" as after 50 years of messing around with these things I've realized there isn't a perfect gun. Not for every task or purpose anyway.

I've always liked the 645. As far as S&W 45 semi autos go, it is the one that was a quality piece, from the git go. Lots of thought and testing went into the design. On almost every one I've examined and certainly on the ones I own/have owned, you can see the attention to detail and quality of construction.

I own examples of many different 3rd gen pistols, including expensive Performance Center pistols. One PC prototype gun too. Not one of them is as well made, or well fitted as my TAV prefix 645. On that 645 you can not feel a rough spot anywhere or see a tool mark. The machined lines are even and flawless. Every seam is even. The back of the slide is pefectly even with the frame. No pins protrude, no metal filings to be found in the inner recesses. The famous trademark is perfectly stamped. The roll marks are clear and crisp and aligned.

Someone who cared about their work, took pride in what they did and had done it more than a few times put this gun together. Someone inspected it before it was shipped. Back when it was made, shooters wanted quality guns that looked good and functioned perfectly right out of the box. Back then we got them.

So I'm looking for a full size carry 45. Stainless. With grip panels and Novak Sights. A sweet DA trigger so that I can drive tacks with it. I guess I'm looking for a late production 645. Regards 18DAI

Badkarma 1 · #6 10-10-2013, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

BUFF, PM sent!

Badkarma 1 I saw those pics too. I'm pretty sure the 6450's had the 3rd gen Delrin wrap around grip. BUT - as BUFF's gun may illustrate, I think there were some late production - very end of 645 production PRIOR to the "transitional" models (which essentially were parts guns built to use up left over parts) - 645's which had 645 frames and early 4506 slides.

I watch Gunbroker and other auction boards fairly regularly. In the last three years I've seen three WELL USED 645's which had what appeared to be 645 frames with slides sporting early Novak Low Mount sights. I was out bid on the one in good shape that I thought I might be able to afford. The other two were messed up pretty badly. Abuse, not normal use. I passed on those. All of them were rollmarked 645 on the frame. All had TB_ serials.

The majority of 645's I've come across, including the one I own have TA_ serials. I'm pretty sure the last of the breed, and the early 4506 no dash used TB_ serial prefix's.

The 6450, 6451 and 6452 command some high premiums. Too high IMO for what amounts to parts guns. But I'm a shooter/end user not a collector. I guess historically, being made in short numbers they are worth a premium to a collector.

If one ever wanders down into this public area we should ask him.

Yes timn8er it is a bit of a quest I suppose. But not eternal as there are limits to me, my funds and my interest.

Nor is it for the "perfect gun" as after 50 years of messing around with these things I've realized there isn't a perfect gun. Not for every task or purpose anyway.

I've always liked the 645. As far as S&W 45 semi autos go, it is the one that was a quality piece, from the git go. Lots of thought and testing went into the design. On almost every one I've examined and certainly on the ones I own/have owned, you can see the attention to detail and quality of construction.

I own examples of many different 3rd gen pistols, including expensive Performance Center pistols. One PC prototype gun too. Not one of them is as well made, or well fitted as my TAV prefix 645. On that 645 you can not feel a rough spot anywhere or see a tool mark. The machined lines are even and flawless. Every seam is even. The back of the slide is pefectly even with the frame. No pins protrude, no metal filings to be found in the inner recesses. The famous trademark is perfectly stamped. The roll marks are clear and crisp and aligned.

Someone who cared about their work, took pride in what they did and had done it more than a few times put this gun together. Someone inspected it before it was shipped. Back when it was made, shooters wanted quality guns that looked good and functioned perfectly right out of the box. Back then we got them.

So I'm looking for a full size carry 45. Stainless. With grip panels and Novak Sights. A sweet DA trigger so that I can drive tacks with it. I guess I'm looking for a late production 645. Regards 18DAI

An excellent post 18DAI! As too what your looking for the 645 with a Bar-Sto barrel and a trigger job, plus Novak sights, much like Wiley Clapp had built some years ago.
As to the 645 itself, you describe it well. If memory serves the 645 was to outgrowth of Tom Campbell and the wizards at S&W. he wanted S&W to become a name in competition shooting and began shooting the Steel Challenge with his special SuperGun, on hand made, hand fitted steel framed 59 (possibly the forerunner to the 559/659), and was making heads turn! But since this was the late 70s early 80s everybody knew you had to use a .45 in the other competitions, unfortunately Smith didn't build a .45 Auto.
Tom approached the company with an idea, and SuperGun 2 was born! A hand made, single action, single column .45 that sported a model 52 bushing and in house custom barrel. Tom went on to place in IPSC, and at Second Chance with a uncompensated piece, and the question he was asked,"When is S&W gonna build a .45 Auto?!"
1985 the 645 rolled off the line! All of what 18DAI said is true as this pistol could trance its linage back to Super Gun 2! Tom Campbell showed it at all the major competitions, cops started buying them in droves and in a couple of years it had a staring role on a little show called Miami Vice. It was the flagship of the second generation Smith autos and it borrowed the fixed busing from the earlier 469/669 "Mini Gun", it was the most reliable .45 ever made, accuracy was somewhere between 2.5-3 inches at 25yds.
And I own one! Sure the starboard side safety lever gets loose some times falls off after a lot of shooting, but hey there's always LocTite. Maybe it isn't as svelt as the third gen 4506 BUT IT WILL DO EVERYTHING IT'S YOUNGER SIBLING DOES!! And yeah it's big and heavy, but I'm not here to sway the plastic fantastic crowd, I'm here to open eyes to some very nice, very reliable, and damn good looking pistols! Sure plastic is lighter, but it does get brittle with age and will require replacement. Sure parts are getting hard to find, but at least steel can be formed and remade.
Let me just say this, there are tools and then there are BETTER tools, do you buy Snap-On or Old Craftsman?
Dale

Model39 · #7 10-11-2013, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

I have not been able to find much information on this model S&W 45. According to where you look there were either "...less than 900 made.." or "...151 hand built by the Performance center..." It was made for RSR at the end of model 645 production and the beginning of the 3rd gen 4506. That much is certain.

The S&W 6450 photos I Googled show 645 hybrid looking guns. All but one have the 4506 Delrin one piece grip. One though is wearing 645 Pachmyars with a 645 backstrap. Confusing.....

I have been looking for a Novak sight equipped 645 for some time. I'd love to find a modified 645 with the sights installed and the undercut trigger guard ala Sokol mods/Novaks full house mods. I want those two modifications on a 645 frame.

I have a slide that was made for a late production 645. It has Novak 3 dot sights installed. I think it may be for a transitional model though. I installed it on a 645 frame. It seemed to fit and function fine. Till I shot it.

When I shot it the slide came back too far and locked up. Sheared the top off the disconnector too. Very disappointing.

So, what am I looking for? I want the 645 grip frame and slide, with Novak sights, the 4506 undercut trigger guard and 4506 decockers. What model fits that bill? Regards 18DAI

Here is my custom 645. The gun has a lot of the features you want. The slide has 3 dot Novak sights, and the frame has been melted a little, and for extra concealment a 4516 top end has been fitted to it. The gun was then given a Teflon finish. All works/functions perfectly. This was made for my by a retired FBI armorer, who specialized in top performing custom autos and revolvers. An sadly no, he is out of the business.Second picture is of the gun fitted with fancy Walnut grips, sitting on top of it's fancy presentation case.

SonnyJames · #8 10-22-2013, 10:14 PM

Hello all. I just thought I would add a small piece of information to your discussion. I own a 6450. It for all intents and purposes looks like a 645, but with 4506 sights. The box mine came in has "special" under the accessories line. The particular one that I own came with the paperwork from SW that indicated mine was one of 150 made. Mine is unfired and a safe queen. It's serial number is TBR-XXXX. There were two different runs of this hybrid. One was a couple hundred, one was 150. I do not see any discernible value enhancement in my SW book, but I guess for the right collector they would be somewhat expensive. If you would like pictures of mine and the accompanying paperwork I would be happy to post it for your reference. As to value I honestly do not know. My SW value book doesn't seem to identify them as anything that garners a premium though, so you may be disappointed

.

timn8er · #9 10-22-2013, 10:33 PM

I would love to see any pics & info that you could post on this pistol, & I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

flagman1776 · #10 10-22-2013, 10:34 PM

My 645, I bought from the dept. armorer about a year old in SN: TAN93XX Jan of 1989. It kept me safe on many stormy nights.

SonnyJames · #11 10-23-2013, 07:16 PM

Hey guys, I am trying to figure out how to upload these pictures. I am not super tech savvy.

timn8er · #12 10-23-2013, 07:39 PM

Do you have a Photo Bucket account?

SonnyJames · #13 10-23-2013, 08:37 PM

No sir I do not. I guess that's the best way to proceed? Also as an FYI, there is a 6450 for sale on Gunbroker right now. However, he has it mislabeled as one of 150. His has the wraparound 4506 grips, which classifies it as a "pilot gun" instead of the even rarer 150 interim guns. Just don't want you guys to get tattooed if you want to buy it

SonnyJames · #14 10-23-2013, 09:01 PM

sonnyjames71's's Library | Photobucket

dacoontz · #15 10-23-2013, 09:34 PM

Interesting that it doesn't have the RSR serial number prefix?

WW5906 · #16 10-23-2013, 10:07 PM

Somewhat off topic, but with regard to 18DAI's second post, I pulled out my no dash 4506 and it's a TDC prefix. Looking at auction site 645's and the SCSW, it's a bit tricky trying to figure out the cusp.

18DAI · #17 10-24-2013, 01:59 PM

Thanks for the additional info and pics fellas!

Very nice pistol SonnyJames! Thanks for the images of the S&W flyers too!

I guess I will just have to find a gunsmith to fit the top end I have to the 645 I'm using. Maybe undercut the trigger guard as well. Thanks again! Regards 18DAI

flagman1776 · #18 10-24-2013, 02:35 PM

My 645 (as I mentioned above) I bought from the Dept Armorer in 1989. It went to S&W school with him. SN# TAN93XX He'd already gotten the gun approved for duty so all I had to do was qualify with it.

grif684 · #19 10-25-2013, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyJames

No sir I do not. I guess that's the best way to proceed? Also as an FYI, there is a 6450 for sale on Gunbroker right now. However, he has it mislabeled as one of 150. His has the wraparound 4506 grips, which classifies it as a "pilot gun" instead of the even rarer 150 interim guns. Just don't want you guys to get tattooed if you want to buy it

The pistol in question is, in fact, a true transitional model. They were all made in 1988 and carried the earlier second gen model number on the frame, but a non-conforming four digit model number on the box. The RSR models are not transitional models at all, having been built much later (about 1990-91) for RSR, and simply using up second gen parts. The true transitionals will all have a TBx xxxx serial number, most of which fall in the TBU, TBV, or TBW serial range, and will have a third gen one piece grip, even though labeled as a second gen on the frame.....most were shipped in October or November 1988, and consisted of 45 as well as 9mm models, both compact and full size....it is not mislabled at all, but is a true "interim gun", the pilot pistols all carried the "AIP" prefix.....it is mislabled as being built on an older frame however, as all the transitional models were basically second gen top ends on third gen frames. The sure way to tell is the red dot safety "off" indicator is on the slide, rather than the frame, which is where it would be located on a true third gen four digit model.....

mbliss57 · #20 10-25-2013, 08:00 PM

Somewhat off the 45 but in the RSR realm...I have a nice 6690 RSR box if anyone needs one. S/N RSR4628 to be exact Maybe someone has the gun..(If so it's free) or just wants an RSR 6690box to marry up with the 9mm variant. I originally picked it up thinking I might get interested in collecting them..but that desire never materialized. Before I put it up for sale I thought i would throw it out to those here...
PM me if your interested.

18DAI · #21 01-13-2014, 03:57 PM

After much searching I have found out which "transitional model" I am looking for. The model 6454!

That is the good news.

The bad news is that evidently there were only 10 examples of the 6454 made. All with RSR serial prefixs.

So, I'm going to make my own.

I have a complete top end. Now alls I need is an early production 4506 no dash frame. The search continues! Regards 18DAI

Badkarma 1 · #22 01-13-2014, 08:11 PM

18DAI, you should have come to the last gun show (this past weekend) with me. There was an early 4506 there!
Dale

18DAI · #23 01-15-2014, 02:05 PM

Badkarma1 I would like to attend a gunshow with you. Perhaps when I finally retire and can travel a bit.

Interestingly, I was digging through my reference materials last night looking for some info I promised a member here. I came across the 1985 Guns & Ammo issue with the "New S&W 45" article on the model 645. It was written by Jan Libourel. He actually was shooting a pre production gun with AIP serial prefix. I noticed it had a few cosmetic differences from the production models. Mr Libourel stated that this particular test 645 had over 25,000 rounds through it. They really built them back then.

More interesting, to me, was the fact that there were a few FTE's reported that occured during the test of the 645. Who says gunwriters didn't use to give you the bad along with the good? Mr Libourel was one of the good gunwriters I followed back in the day.

The FTE's were attributed to one particular ammunition brand which had very thin case heads. During the test a young Rob Leatham came over and test fired the 645 as well. Already a champion shooter at the young age of 24, Leatham said that; "...S&W has a winner on its hands in the 645."

I found all of that pretty interesting. Thought y'all might too. Regards 18DAI

DougM038 · #24 08-12-2015, 02:29 PM

Resurrecting this thread as I just inherited a 6451, RSR version. I did some research on this and know 230 were made. I'm not so knowledgeable in general about these .45's (my last SW was a 439...) so I don't know how many 4506 parts this one has on it, but does have the wrap-around grips and maybe the slide is 4506ish? Any thoughts?

It's in excellent shape, fired just a few times before it was given to me, and I've run 100 rounds through it, flawless. The Hogue grips were added, which are just a tad too large for my hands, so I'm assuming standard 4506 grips should fit and be a bit thinner? The rear sight is adjustable so that's probably also been added?

I doubt that this has any real collectors value from what I've read, especially since I don't have the original box, manual, etc. (although if someone wants to make a huge offer for it, I won't stop you), so my idea is to keep it and shoot it. It's my only .45 and it does shoot very well and seems as accurate as I am.

Any other feedback welcome, thanks.

dacoontz · #25 08-12-2015, 11:02 PM

Collectors value? Oh yes. This is a rare gun with very limited production. I have one almost just like it except mine has the original fixed rear sight that is similar to the one seen on standard 645's. Hope you don't mind but I'd like to add this one to my database.

The standard grips will feel a bit thinner. I'm about to update a thread with a similar variation and I will add a "family" picture that includes my 6451. Great gun and thanks for sharing.