There was a thread a while back on the frame and slide being numbered on the TSW guns . At that time I had 4 of them and none were numbered at the factory . Just picked up another and guess what , the frame and the slide are factory numbered.

What makes this interesting to me is the serial numbers of the pistols . I have 3 that were in the catalog run from 2000 to 2002 and their prefixes are VJC, VJE, VJF . The VJC is factory numbered on the frame and slide (see pics) The other 2 TSW guns I have were latter Dept orders with prefixes of BAW, BAY . They are not built as well as the earlier guns and there's no matching numbers on the frame and slide.

What I have found to be amusing is the fit of the earlier guns would make a high end 1911 proud , the Dept ordered guns not as good . What say you TSW guys and gals.

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I remember something about the TSW's with rails are the ones that have the slide & frame numbered. Did the two you had earlier have rails?

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

My pre rail 3913TSW isn't matched, but the rails are thicker than on my non TSW guns. I think Fastbolt had some comments on this in that they were not only beefier, but "more square" than the regular guns. Don't quote me on that because I might be misremembering what he said.

I do know that I can not interchange slides between my 3913s, 3914, or 6906 with my TSW although I can with each other if I wanted to.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

GaryS that sounds right.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Were the Dept guns made differently? If so, how?

timn8er, 4 rail guns 1 dept gun non rail. Only the VJC gun is numbered.

GaryS yes the slide rails are heavier and square cut plus heavy inner guides in the front dust cover.

Bud Jr , no, they were made the same way it just seems that more care went into the older guns

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I think I had about the same ratio. If i get a chance I'll try & figure out which one of them had the matching numbers, because right now I just don't remember...ain't it great getting old? But none of mine have a VJC serial number.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Of the 3 TSW's I own: 1 has matching number (TDS prefix), 1 has a number on the frame only, the area on the slide is highly polished with no visible number (UBZ prefix, unfired pistol), and 1 has mismatched numbers (VJD prefix). All are well finished, have rails and are tight. The mismatched numbered gun has the best trigger of the 3. I assume it was a factory mistake or maybe a dealer/distributor swapped slides due to damage or just plain carelessness. To me one of the best features of the TSW is the rounding of the frame near the magazine release, especially on the double stack gun. It fits just a bit tighter in my hand. Really wish S&W made a 3906TSW. Perhaps I can find a trusted gunsmith to give a 3906 a 'melt job' in just a few places.

Well, I'm somewhat disappointed. The more I thought about the matching numbers, the more it bothered me. So I field stripped all of my TSW's. Of the seven I own(three w/o rail, one with rail removed, three w/rail)only one of them has numbers on the frame & on the slide, a 5903TSW with the serial number prefix TDS. Some of the others had numbers on the frame, under the grip, but that was it. I wonder what the deal is?

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Out of the seven TSW guns I own/have owned, only one had matching slide and frame numbers. A 4563TSW. It was not an LE gun.

All of my LE trade in TSW guns have no frame/slide numbers. Some of those LE trade in guns are VERY tightly fit though.

My pre rail TDM prefix 4513TSW being the tightest. Just as tight as my PC CQB and Shorty 45 guns, all of which have matching slide/frame numbers BTW. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I remember being told that the earliest of the TSW guns were matched for frames & slides during production, since the TSW's had slightly tighter tolerances and the larger Box-type rails. Continuing improvements in manufacturing, however, made it possible to produce the guns with tighter tolerances without having to worry about trying to match slides and slides. The tolerances remained tighter than on standard 3rd gen's.

The newer 3rd gen's have 3 serial numbers on the frame. The visible 'standard one' (by the model number), and then 2 more underneath the grips, on the left side of the frame. One of them is large and easy to read, and then one is a micro-type number (highest of them the left side).

As time passed and manufacturing & subtle production improvements continued to be made, the TSW's continued to benefit from ongoing improvements. I'd think the current/latest of the guns made are the best of the bunch. Some of the interior machining cuts and tolerances have appeared tighter, smoother and cleaner than on the early TSW's.

I don't necessarily look at having those matching 3 digit numbers on the slide & frame as being any sort of indicator of the early gun being made "better", but just meaning it's an older model gun that was among the earliest of the TSW production.

The only black eye, as it were, was when they started using that light-duty riveted accessory rail, before someone decided it was worth the effort to machine integral rails. Not uncommon to have the riveted rails snap/break apart. I wouldn't go as far as to call them "pot metal", but looking at the exposed metal of broken rails does remind you of pot metal. The occasional loose rail on a duty gun was ... annoying.

When they separated the LE/Gov/Mil & commercial print catalogs, and still handed them out in armorer classes, I remember seeing pictures of the full-size all-steel TSW models pictured as being available with the machined integral rails (no additional charge on LE orders), but never saw any pictures to indicate they were available on the compact or aluminum guns.

I always wondered about that, but never remembered to ask reps or armorer instructors during subsequent classes. I always thought a 4013/4513/3913 would be nice with an integral rail (if you like the idea of a rail)... but then I also always thought an all-steel 3913 (call it a 3916?) with an integral rail would be slick. Not that I'd ever care to use the rail to hang a light on a gun, but it would've looked better than that riveted rail, and the slightly heaver steel frame would make the little single stack compact 9 a soft-shooter, indeed.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt, as always you provide useful information. Thanks for posting!

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Here is a picture of the micro number Fastbolt mentions

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Thanks for posting the pic, but on the various guns I've had occasion to own, issue or service the micro-numbers was located a bit further back, where they were completely covered by the side plate. We were always told that this was to make the numbers under the grip, and then under the side plate, difficult to see (find) without removing the grips, and then the side plate.

Maybe so.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt , I find the micro numbers interesting. The pic I posted was the VJC gun and this post the VJE, both are 2 line guns. I checked my other 3 ( all 3 line guns ) and there was no micro #. I was surprised the VJF gun didn't have one. I sure if WTN1271 checks his VJD there will be a micro #.
timn8er how about that TDS gun.

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Considering how well designed and built the compact 3rd generation 9mms were it's disappointing that there are so few variations. A 3916 would have been nice, as would a 6906TSW (excluding the Shorty 9), and a frame or slide mounted decocker only version, a 3933 or 3936.

Some say that the Sig P239 is that gun, but I've never shot one, so I don't know.

Ah well, all we can do now is dream.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

From what I remember, the addition of the extra serial numbers above & below the upper frame window cut on the left side, started sometime toward the end of the 90's. One of the micro-numbers on one of my own guns is hard to read even with my magnifying bench lamp & reading glasses.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Well, the 69XX guns were pretty much rendered unmarketable by the fed mag ban, the availability of plastic-framed compacts with double stack mags and the meager 2-rd difference between the much slimmer 3913 guns and the double stack 69XX guns.

More's the pity, as I really liked the issued 6906's I carried and tried to wear out.

The SIG P239 is a great compact single stack, but it's pretty chunky and thick for just being a single stack. The girth of the grip makes it less appealing for some folks with shorter fingers, and their "short" trigger doesn't shorten the trigger reach by an appreciable amount. Good little guns, though. The rearward location of the slide stop lever can make unintentional contact occur more easily. Bumping the lever upwards under recoil, or pressing against it and holding it down (preventing slide lock on empty mag), are occasionally things that a particular shooter might have to learn to avoid doing. Like the rest of the SIG Classic model line, the 239 is grip-dependent for keeping the trigger bar spring properly positioned and up under the rear of the trigger bar.

If S&W had never made the 3913, I'd have bought a P239.

Now that the single stack TSW 3rd gen's are essentially gone, the 239 remains a viable choice for someone wanting a metal-framed single stack compact ... but I'd sooner buy a Shield, myself.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

What he /\ said. Except for the "buy a shield" part.

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I knew you'd say that!

Another compact gun that's outstanding (and also a double stack) is the Walther P99 AS 9 compact (and the discontinued SW999c).

I was running my SW999c through a qual course-of-fire and some drills a couple days ago, and both the DA & SA trigger modes are simply better than anything that can be done with my 3913 or the latest 3913TSW, especially the SA trigger stroke.

The trigger on the SW999c is also much better than the last couple of Shield 9's I've used.

Funny thing, though, one of the guys running his personal M&P 9 as a duty weapon has shot that particular gun enough that the trigger has become REALLY nice. Noticeably better than the other M&P's he owns in which he's installed after-market parts from a well known company. He's not the only guy running a M&P duty pistol who has noticed this happen, either. The well-used trigger in his stock M&P 9 makes the well used trigger in his previously issued current production 4566TSW feel heavy, stiff and rough. (My issued 4513TSW can't match that trigger, either.)

I was using his M&P 9 for a bit, and the light, smooth & short trigger pull prompted me to ask him (a bit suspiciously) if he'd slipped in one of his after-market kits.

It's been a bit since I shot his M&P 9 VTAC, which is a newer production M&P 9 than what he's carrying on-duty, but it apparently hasn't been shot enough to feel as nice as this "older" production trigger. Interesting ...

Oh yeah, FWIW, despite the internet uproar over the accuracy of the 9mm M&P's, that guy's 2-3 year old M&P 9 was inherently accurate enough for me to make several called hits on clothespins spaced around the edge of the target backboard at 5-7 yds. His VTAC 9 was pretty accurate last time I tried it, too, as was another instructor's recently purchased M&P 9 VTAC, which we only shot out to 95 yds.

Ditto the last couple of M&P 9c's I tried.

Maybe S&W has been successful in their efforts to tighten up on the M&P 9's inherent accuracy. I don't know exactly when they enhanced the lock-up and changed the twist rates, but there haven't been any complaints about accuracy from M&P 9 users of late on our range.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I have a pre-rail 4013 TSW. Bought it in 1998.

Here's mine.http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1397766830

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Fastbolt , the VJC gun is a 4006tsw cataloged 2000 to 2003 and the VJE is a 4566tsw cataloged 2000 to 2004. As you said they are hard to read, when I first saw them I thought they were just a nasty scratch. Like I have said the tsw guns are bank vault tight but the stainless guns slide like there on rollers they even sound just right.

18DIA , I hate to admit to it but I do have a Shield 9 and a G22 . I could not care less about holster wear on those guns . Why beat up hard to replace 3rd gens. The shield in a IWB is hardly noticeable and I can almost forget that it's there. As Fastbolt said the gun doe's it's job if I do mine.

Ah the 69xx what can you say other than there great guns just under appreciated .It's probably time to start another tread on them (just cause it's fun)

If I can add that the reason I got in to the tsw guns was the de-horning around the trigger guard , S&W should have been doing that all along.

No numbers in my 4513TSW, a TDU, issued to my brother's dept in 2001.

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Thanks Martya, for the date on the TDU . I have a CHP4006 prefix TDU that I thought was older and always wondered how it got all the mim parts. Your 4513tsw answers that question.

As I recall, a friend of mine who was a field weapons officer for the CHP told me that their older M4006's were received in 4 series, which they identified as being A-D series (in-house designation). Some were newer production than others.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Trying not to divert the thread too much, but those dark parts are MIM? Decocker, trigger, slide lock? Never gave it a thought.

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Yes sir, that is why the trigger is as smooth as it is. Mim is not as terrible as some would have you believe . I have never had a mim piece fail yet .

I posted earlier that mine had no additional numbers other than the serial#, but I got to thinking I should check under the grip as I don't trust the sponge too much lately. So during the bimonthly lint removal / cleaning I checked - I was correct, just the serial # again under the grip.

And, I don't have any issue with MIM. Just thought maybe they were blued parts.

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

I have a 4056TSW, sn#: MSE13xx (I was told it's ~1998) that does not have the number matched parts.
It's very tight though.

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Bluedot, that is one sweet 4056 . The info that I have is it's 1 year only 1997. What a Unicorn , all stainless 3.50'' .40 . Wow , there is a gun you'd never expect to see. Doe's it have the loaded chamber indicator or did that start with the rail guns?

Oh yeah, I see that now on skjos 3rd Gen list. 1997 ONLY....cool!! . Thanks for pointing that out. It was a good find, smooth DA, tight, & in great condition with little usage, but no box/papers. (I'm going to take it to the range this week & try BMCM's ISMI flat wire 18# single spring replacement for the factory dual/nested springs. I'll let you know how it goes.)

It does not have the loaded chamber indicator though so I guess that started later.

...and it's currently the only TSW in the "group".

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From what I recall, the short run of earlier "pre-rail" TSW's lacked both the loaded chamber inspection port and the extra machining (in the TDA slides) for the optional spring-loaded, decock-only assembly.

Since my own 4513TSW is from that early production "pre-rail" vintage, and lacks both the inspection port and the extra machining for the decock-only option, that seems to make sense.

Never say never for S&W, though, as they've made all manner of unusual guns with unusual/non-standard features whenever it's seemed to suit them.

I bought a late production 3913 sometime at the end of the 90's, and it shipped directly from the factory with the slide having been machined for the spring-loaded/decock-only option. (That was a new option at that time, and we were told it had been developed for special order on LE guns for the time being). My new 3913 was a standard 3913 (not a TSW), and although it had the extra machining for the optional assembly, it came with the standard ambi manual safety assembly.

Naturally, I called and ordered the spring-loaded assembly and installed it in that 3913 ... (and then later had to order the .45 ambi lever to replace the standard 9/.40 ambi lever, as it was later determined that the .45 lever's extra material on the back of the lever was needed to help prevent possible side-to-side movement of the whole assembly, which might interfere with freedom of movement of the firing pin through the assembly's FP hole, but that's another story).

I never could get an explanation for why that particular 3913 had had its slide machined for the new spring-loaded option, but then shipped with the standard manual safety. The best guess I got from someone was that maybe that slide had been modified by the Performance Center ... (the PC was where slides of existing LE guns were modified to accept the new option at that time) ... for some intended project, but not used, and then the slide was later returned to the factory for regular production.

Whatever the reason, which may never been known, I was able to install the then-new LE option of the spring-loaded decocker in my new 3913.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt, would it be possible to get a picture of what that machined for decock only slide looks like? Not that I'm going to change it, I'm just curious.

On another note, I changed my pre rail 3913TSW grips back to the original factory set. The modified by someone Hogues that it had on it were pushing my right index finger into the "horn" on the trigger guard and making it awkward to grip and shoot. I won't say that my accuracy improved, but it was much more comfortable to shoot than before.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Anyway to Switch Decocker w/ safety to Decokcer Only?

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Thanks! Interesting.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

That's interesting. My pre-rail TSW does not have this (extra machining) either.
So some were machined with this optional feature but did most not come with the decocker-only assembly installed? Do you know what models (9mm/40/45) this was done to?

And just to clarify, the red arrow is on the tab, correct? You mentioned the left & the right lever but is the one in the middle supposed to be the same as on the right, or is there something different about it I'm missing?

After the original TSW's (non-railed compacts), S&W started to make full-size models for duty use and they wanted to be able to allow their LE customers the option of converting to spring-loaded/decock-only. From what we were told, instead of having to send regular 3rd gen guns to the PC for the additional machining, they decided their "premium" TSW line would come already machined to accept the option.

In the pic, your red arrow points to the .45 ambi lever's tab, and in order to make the difference more clearly seen (tab), I put both a .45 & 9/.40 lever on top of the black & white image (.45 lever on the right).

It's the extra tab material on the .45 lever that acts as a 'spacer' against the outside of the slide, on the right side, limiting lateral play of the decocker assembly.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer