M41 reliability issues with standard velocity ammo

Now that 22 ammo is readily available again I have been getting back into 22 shooting again. As I get older I find I have less tolerance for unreliable guns. The S&W 41 I bought in the mid nineties has always had issues with standard velocity ammo but until recently I just accepted the failures.

With standard velocity ammo most of the failures I see are where the empty case ejects but the slide does not pick up the next round. So I end up dry firing the gun. With CCI standard velocity this happens about 3 to 5 times out of 100. it is more likely to happen with a full magazine but downloading the magazine to 10 rounds does not solve the problem.

It runs fine with high velocity ammo. As an experiment I ran a couple of hundred rounds of Federal Automatch through with a single stovepipe being the only failure. The next range session I ran 200 Minimags through it with no failures of any kind

While it did not seem related to the failures I am seeing I replaced the extractor with the aftermarket Volquartsen version and replaced the recoil spring with a fresh S&W factory spring. I also disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the magazines. I briefly looked for replacement magazine springs but couldn't find any.

At this point I am leaning towards giving up and shooting Minimags. I don't compete in bullseye or other sports with the gun so it probably gets about 1000 rounds a year through it. The manual says nothing about only using standard velocity so if something does break there is a good chance S&W will fix it under warranty. I don't expect a 22 to be 100% reliable but would like to see a failure rate of 1% or less.

Anything else I should try before I do that?

A few ideas I thought about but rejected are:

1 - Using a less powerful aftermarket recoil spring. If I should be using standard velocity ammo to prevent battering a less powerful spring pretty much defeats the purpose.

2 = Oiling the ammo. I want shooting a 22 to be fun and easy and I don't want to add an extra step.

3 - Replacing the M41 with a lesser gun designed for high velocity ammo. I have shot Buckmarks and the Ruger Mark series but like the M41 better. I do have a M&P 22 compact but that is much harder to shoot well supplement to my M41, not a replacement.

4 - Buying some new magazines. I still might do this but could only find 10 round magazines. Did Smith quit making the 12 round version?

I have 2 model 41’s a older 5” and a new 7”.

My 7” loves oil the 5” only likes a bit.

My new one after a strip down I relubed it as I do the 5” was getting a heap of jams with cci sv. Then I puked the hell out of it and it runs perfect. 1 jam per 250 shots then I know it’s time for a clean

Gros21 said:

My 7” loves oil the 5” only likes a bit.n

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I have always lightly oiled my 5 inch model. I'll try running it wet next time, thanks.

My M41 is generally reliable with CCI or Aquila standard velocity, I got into Steel Challenge and shot all one year with zero malfunction. Then the gun went nuts. One day it took two magazines before it started functioning.

I kept working with it and finally realized that unreliability only showed up after I had cleaned it!

Possibility 1, parts not "seated" and it was taking some recoil to shake them back into position. That did not pan out, I could take the barrel and slide off, put them back on without cleaning, and resume shooting without failure.

Possibility 2, chamber TOO clean. My last outing, I started with a freshly cleaned barrel and applied a drop of oil to the top round in the first magazine. Operation was normal and reliable for the rest of the day.

So, the "extra step" of oiling the ammo seems needed only once and that only after scrubbing the chamber. Not a great burden. In MY gun.

UPDATE: I repeated the oildrop test with Aquila instead of CCI SV. One drop of oil on the top round in the first magazine lasted. One drop, 50 rounds trouble free.

ETA
If you go the limber spring route, there is a thread on installation of aftermarket springs. It seems to not be the usual way in this gun.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...-spring-model-41-a.html?583065=#post140339568

As to boatbum's remark, I also find that European ammo is lighter loaded than American. I shoot mostly CCI SV, some Aquila SV. But Wolf/SK Jagd SV is not reliable in my Smith or High Standard. It does function my Woodsman, so I am able to use what I have on hand in something besides a bolt action rifle.

I've done the following to mine which I use to compete in Bullseye . Cut 2 coils off the mainspring ( hammer spring ) & installed a 6 1/2lb recoil spring . I was not able to find a reduced power mainspring for the 41 & that's why I trimmed mine . Reduced power recoil spring to reduce battering slide when returning to battery . CCI std vel is about the hottest std vel 22lr ammo . The Euro stuff is weaker . If gun won't function with CCI it's because springs are too strong . When slide starts back in recoil it's working against the mainspring & if you reduce it's strength you increase slide velocity which increases extraction / ejection . By reducing recoil spring rate you reduce force of slide returning to battery . I am able to now shoot any 22lr std vel target ammo without issues . Have you tried putting a drop of oil on top round in the mag ? What this does is increase chamber pressure which increases slide velocity in recoil . If that works it reinforces my point . I'm not a fan of cutting springs but when you can't find the rate you want it's the only alternative . If you decide to go this route never ever shoot anything other than std vel ammo as you could damage gun ie crack the frame . Volquartsen extractor was a good move as factory extractors have been an issue for years that S&W refuses to address . Keeping gun well lubed doesn't hurt either .

Hey boatbum, I've read for a long time about the drop of oil trick for 41's but your comment is the first time I've heard it said that this raises the pressure slightly and I would like to hear more about why that is the case, I simply want to understand the mechanics behind it.

I got my first 41 in early December and admittedly pitiful, I haven't been blessed with a chance to shoot it yet. I'm keeping the drop of oil trick in my arsenal if I have issues.

I use the drop of oil trick almost every week with my old M41. Especially when the barrel is cold or slightly dirty as well. This works really well with the ejecting of the CCI SV ammo which is the only ammo I use in my 22's. Very quick and easy to do. One drop on top of the top bullet in a mag of five bullets works perfectly.

The oil seals the chamber better which raises the pressure . Which is also why they tell us to dry patch barrel / chamber before shooting a centerfire rifle . I doubt it raises them enough to be a problem . BE guys been doing this for years w/o problems . M 41 barrels / chambers aren't exactly match dimensions so sometimes it needs a little help .

I had similar problems with my 41 several years ago. The drop of oil helped quite a bit -- for a couple of years. Then I had to use a light wipe of grease in order to get it to go 10 rounds without a problem. I did many of the things mentioned above trying to solve the problem. Then I realized that I wasn't having any failures to feed or eject when I was using the 7-3/8 inch barrel. Only with my 5 inch barrel. Note: this barrel was bought used over 20 years ago when I started needing a red dot for league shooting.

My gunsmith thought it might benefit from a match chamber reaming and he loaned me his reamer. The pilot section would not even enter the rifled portion of the barrel. On any of my Smiths. But it would enter on the High Standards, Remingtons, Winchesters, etc. Go figure. I borrowed a ball mike and measured both the front and rear of the chamber in both the N-S and E-W directions. The tightest measurement was greater than the loosest measurement according to SAAMI and the rest were worse.

Conclusion -- the barrel was at the end of its useful life as far as I was concerned.

Solution -- the aforementioned gunsmith ordered a new barrel in for me at his cost.

Result -- no more problems.

If you can try out a different barrel on your frame and with your recoil spring and ammunition.

First, number your magazines.

Second, ensure that you're not touching any part of the slide or controls while shooting. It doesn't take much pressure to retard a .22 slide enough to cause problems.

Third, you might have one of the occasional 41s that prefers Aguila SuperExtra, Wolf Match, etc. Try some other brands in the $0.04-$0.045/round range. You could keep rolling with the AutoMatch, which is a smidge hotter, but it just seems like sacrilege to run bulk ammo through a 41.

I would double-check that the chamber was indeed clean, and I would thoroughly go over the internals, especially the hammer and mainspring. I would also replace the mainspring with a factory standard weight.

Remember that proper ejection and feeding occurs as a result of all the components, not just the recoil spring. It's timing, and positioning. The cartridge needs to be in the right place, and the slide needs to be moving at the right speed to make all the magic happen. If you're not stripping the cartridge out of the magazine, that would seem to indicate:

Cartridge isn't high enough
Slide isn't coming far enough back

There are some other options, but they're in the grain of "I suppose they're possible but I've never actually seen them".

Dave Lively said:

1 - Using a less powerful aftermarket recoil spring. If I should be using standard velocity ammo to prevent battering a less powerful spring pretty much defeats the purpose.

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This would be my next step, under the presumption that the magazines are properly presenting the cartridge for feeding and the gun isn't feeding because the slide isn't fully coming to the rear.

2 = Oiling the ammo. I want shooting a 22 to be fun and easy and I don't want to add an extra step.

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I have no idea why anybody does this, and in my personal experience, it's functioned as nothing more than a placebo.

3 - Replacing the M41 with a lesser gun designed for high velocity ammo. I have shot Buckmarks and the Ruger Mark series but like the M41 better. I do have a M&P 22 compact but that is much harder to shoot well supplement to my M41, not a replacement.

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Huh? None of those guns are designed for HV. Aside from...well, why would you get mad at the 41 for only running with HV, and fix the situation by looking for a gun designed for the stuff?

Sevens said:

Hey boatbum, I've read for a long time about the drop of oil trick for 41's but your comment is the first time I've heard it said that this raises the pressure slightly and I would like to hear more about why that is the case, I simply want to understand the mechanics behind it.

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Really simple.

Oil on the outside of the case occupies space. It's matter--it has volume.

Since the oil is a fluid, it doesn't like to compress. It will also move and displace during feeding.

When you fire, the case wants to expand against the chamber walls. Without the oil, there'd be some air there and the case would expand just fine. With the oil, the case can't do that.

In practice, I don't think that it makes that much of a difference. It probably makes some folks feel better, which can (I'm not being sarcastic) be very useful to the competitive shooter.

Mine runs perfectly fine with CCI SV as do most. That said, I have seen a few that either needed a lighter Recoil Spring or HV ammo to function reliably. Unfortunately, HV ammo is usually not as accurate and it does tend to be a bit harsher on the gun itself.

boatbum101 said:

I've done the following to mine which I use to compete in Bullseye . Cut 2 coils off the mainspring ( hammer spring ) & installed a 6 1/2lb recoil spring . I was not able to find a reduced power mainspring for the 41 & that's why I trimmed mine . Reduced power recoil spring to reduce battering slide when returning to battery . CCI std vel is about the hottest std vel 22lr ammo . The Euro stuff is weaker . If gun won't function with CCI it's because springs are too strong . When slide starts back in recoil it's working against the mainspring & if you reduce it's strength you increase slide velocity which increases extraction / ejection . By reducing recoil spring rate you reduce force of slide returning to battery . I am able to now shoot any 22lr std vel target ammo without issues . Have you tried putting a drop of oil on top round in the mag ? What this does is increase chamber pressure which increases slide velocity in recoil . If that works it reinforces my point . I'm not a fan of cutting springs but when you can't find the rate you want it's the only alternative . If you decide to go this route never ever shoot anything other than std vel ammo as you could damage gun ie crack the frame . Volquartsen extractor was a good move as factory extractors have been an issue for years that S&W refuses to address . Keeping gun well lubed doesn't hurt either .

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Great post. Finding the mainspring/recoil spring balance is what we do for 1911 22 conversions in Bullseye competition. Test for good ammo and then search for the spring combination that works reliably. The Marine and Army armorers have a lot of experience with this.

Also for the Volquartsen extractor I like to relieve the outside edge so the slide can be dropped on a round in the chamber like a Hammerli. Relieving the outside edge allows the extractor to move outward enough to go over the cartridge rim.

Thanks all,

You have talked me into trying a lighter recoil spring before I give up and just start shooting HV ammo. By the way, by high velocity I mean a 40 grain bullet rated at about 1200-1240 fps out of a rifle, not the really light and fast stuff.

The last time I was at the range I did notice my thumb was getting pretty close to the slide and am going to pay more attention to that.

Cci sv is my go to.

But now my m41’s eat almost anything. They have been running on a bulk box of eley or whatever it’s called. Nothing fancy.

They won’t cycle quiet cci nor are they quiet. Certinally not quiet enough to shoot something without drawing attention.

Also may also work out if your m41 era is. I think there are 3 or 4 different batches they made.

A new m41 prolly has different traits to a original high gloss m41.

I also number my mags as I have a ammo can full of mags they get mixed up.

Every time I put my newer m41 away it gets a spray of inox. Every 6 months/500 rounds aka hiding in gun room from noisy kids or annoying partner.

I will cycle all my guns see if any feel stiff/gritty ect strip down 1 or 2 that needs it. Most will just get a blast of inbox and cotton buds to clear up carbon. Not ideal I know.

Only gun I own and not happy with action is the ruger precision rim fire. It just feels like **** to me my marlin xt-22’s feel so much better.