Help Me with 10mm. Some Questions??

I've hesitated (avoided like the plague?) 10mm Smith handguns.

I didn't want to add another caliber; they cost a ton; I have never shot one and have questions about recoil.

Just saw a thread here about converting a 4013 (the ones built on the .45 frame) to 10mm using: a new 10mm barrel? a 10mm mag? and a stronger recoil spring.

Is that all there is to it? (And am I correct it wouldn't be a good idea to try to make the change with a 4013Tactical?)

So now, well, maybe.

But some questions first: what are the advantages -- is it that much better a "stopper" -- over .45acp (or .40) in a 4513 or Beretta PX4? Can the 4513 Smith be changed to 10mm? And, as they are not shot for bullseye, I assume that the recoil is manageable for self defense.

Also, can the changeover be made with, say, a 4043, of which my LGS is only asking $379 for (which I think is a nice price).

Finally, I've got some nice carry guns (almost all Smiths in 9, 40, and 45) and will a 10mm simply replace them? I'd kinda hate for that to happen as I'd be tempted to sell them if they are now "obsolete" and I hate selling any of my S&Ws.

(And just for no particular reason, here's a pic of my latest carry piece: a 6906 frame and 3904 slide.)

Redcoat3340 said:

1)- ...converting a 4013 (the ones built on the .45 frame) to 10mm using: a new 10mm barrel? a 10mm mag? and a stronger recoil spring. Is that all there is to it?


2)- Can the 4513 Smith be changed to 10mm? And, as they are not shot for bullseye, I assume that the recoil is manageable for self defense.

3)- Also, can the changeover be made with, say, a 4043, of which my LGS is only asking $379 for (which I think is a nice price).
(And am I correct it wouldn't be a good idea to try to make the change with a 4013Tactical?)

Click to expand...

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1)- That's the major items, plus a few tweaks.
You can use your existing 4013 barrel but then you won't have the option to switch back to 40S&W at will.

Here's my thread on it: Genesis: 4013 to 1013 to 1016
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2)- The stronger framed 4516 would be the better choice for durability. (See above thread)
You need a converted 4013 upper with the 4516 lower to make a 1016. Again, some tweaks are needed & some quirks exist.
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Full 10mm loads in the 27oz compact 1013 are stout but manageable.

3)- None of the double-stack 40s can be converted to 10mm. They are all on the medium frame & the 10mm cartridge won't fit in their magazine.

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Yes,
the single stack 4013/4014/4053/4054 can be easily converted from 40S&W to 10MM Auto.

While this is not a task for every shooter, those skilled with tools and familiar with firearms internals will be able to accomplish this. Others will reach out to their favorite gunsmith

As BLUEDOT37 mentioned above, you can rechamber the original factory barrel to 10MM Auto. Also go and check out his post, it is wonderfully documented with images and explanations for each.

You will also need a more stout recoil spring assembly. Now if you are looking for a used one, be aware that some shipped with a single recoil spring while some of the later ones shipped with the dual spring setup

For magazines, all you need to do is remove the spacer in the back of the factory supplied magazines. The spacer comes out fairly easily, just check to see if the crimps need to be drilled through on your magazine or not.

Some folks replace the 40S&W follower with a 10MM Auto follower. This prevents the 40S&W follower from tipping. Other members have run the original follower with good reliability.


You can also remove the little nubs on the side of the 10xx magazines, but they will obviously stick out of the frame a little bit

This does make for a heavy recoiling firearm, but no more so that most of the snub nosed 357 Magnum revolvers that folks are pocket carrying these days

For an even smaller, lighter carry option, the Chiefs Special chambered for the 40S&W cartridge (CS40) can be turned into a CS10 with pretty much the same process



As to why do all this with so many adequate carry guns on the market, well some of us to really like the 10MM Auto cartridge. Some of us just like to see what we can do and still others of us just need to be different.

The 10MM Auto cartridge will not replace any of the cartridges you mentioned and none of them will disappear from the marketplace in our lifetimes. In fact of the four cartridges you mentioned, it is the 10MM Auto that has been declared dead and gone more than once in the last 40 years.

I have a CS40 that was converted by BMCM . I wanted it for a carry gun , I already have a 1006 and a 1076 . It's really not as bad as I thought it would be , but then I shoot factory loads . Bluedot said it , nobody was around to tell me . If you do it , find another 40 barrel . I didn't and was sorry . I wanted one of each of the CS's , so I went out and found another CS40 . It worked out because I now have a CS9 , 40 , 45 and 10mm .

BLUEDOT37 said:

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3)- None of the double-stack 40s can be converted to 10mm. They are all on the medium frame & the 10mm cartridge won't fit in their magazine.

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Click to expand...

So no to the double stack 4043, 4046, 4006, 4013TSW, 4053TSW etc

And I know it has been done on the 4013 frames, but personally I would stay away from the Aluminum frames for 10mm - S&W had enough problems with prototype 40S&W frame cracking.

But why? I don't have an answer to that one - other than lower weight of Aluminum frame and cost of 10xx pistols.

I know others will argue this, but not enough difference in stopping power in my mind vs 40S&W. (And yes I have a Glock G20 and a 1076 and a 44 Magnum as well as a 4014 and a 4013TSW)

PS - If you do want to try it with a 4013 - realize there are 2 variants of the 4013 - the early ones (1991, mostly Txxxxxx S/N prefixes) with the single recoil spring or the late ones (mostly Vxxxxxx S/N prefixes) with the double recoil spring and the smaller diameter guide rod and matching slide. The correct recoil springs are near impossible to find for the early single spring pistols.

Buy a 10mm and play with it ...you just may love it .
It's like owning a 1960's Muscle Car ... rolling down the local hwy , blowing the doors off Ricers ... maybe not the best for a cross country trip ...
I have 1 1968 Chevelle , it does one thing ...Go Fast in a straight line ...But Boy is it Lots of Fun to Drive .
To me the 10mm falls just a shade below the 41 Magnum .
A 180 gr. bullet at 1200 fps or a 200 gr. bullet at 1000 fps in a semi-automatic isn't a powder puff ... I would call it a muscle car .
Should you sell all your other handguns ... NO WAY ... the big boy is fun to shoot and is viable in hunting hogs or deer ...but it isn't going to make obsolete all the others ... it's more a niche handgun , sorta limited in scope ... Limited assortment of ammo and even if you hand load the simi-auto action will limit what you can do with light and heavy loads .

I say get one and think of it as a Muscle Car ... keep all your other guns .
Gary

colt_saa said:

Yes,
the single stack 4013/4014/4053/4054 can be easily converted from 40S&W to 10MM Auto.

While this is not a task for every shooter, those skilled with tools and familiar with firearms internals will be able to accomplish this. Others will reach out to their favorite gunsmith

As BLUEDOT37 mentioned above, you can rechamber the original factory barrel to 10MM Auto. Also go and check out his post, it is wonderfully documented with images and explanations for each.

You will also need a more stout recoil spring assembly. Now if you are looking for a used one, be aware that some shipped with a single recoil spring while some of the later ones shipped with the dual spring setup

For magazines, all you need to do is remove the spacer in the back of the factory supplied magazines. The spacer comes out fairly easily, just check to see if the crimps need to be drilled through on your magazine or not.

Some folks replace the 40S&W follower with a 10MM Auto follower. This prevents the 40S&W follower from tipping. Other members have run the original follower with good reliability.

You can also remove the little nubs on the side of the 10xx magazines, but they will obviously stick out of the frame a little bit

This does make for a heavy recoiling firearm, but no more so that most of the snub nosed 357 Magnum revolvers that folks are pocket carrying these days

For an even smaller, lighter carry option, the Chiefs Special chambered for the 40S&W cartridge (CS40) can be turned into a CS10 with pretty much the same process

As to why do all this with so many adequate carry guns on the market, well some of us to really like the 10MM Auto cartridge. Some of us just like to see what we can do and still others of us just need to be different.

The 10MM Auto cartridge will not replace any of the cartridges you mentioned and none of them will disappear from the marketplace in our lifetimes. In fact of the four cartridges you mentioned, it is the 10MM Auto that has been declared dead and gone more than once in the last 40 years.

Click to expand...

Excellent post ... and yes, the 10mm is the ultimate revenant of handgun cartridges. It's been declared a "dead round" fifty times over since 1986 when Bren Ten makers, Dornaus & Dixon, filed for bankruptcy.

Nooop.

Colt introduced the Delta Elite in 1987, and as they say the rest is history, ... especially the part about the 10mm's resurgence which started in the very early 2000s and is still going strong.

gwpercle said:

To me the 10mm falls just a shade below the 41 Magnum .
A 180 gr. bullet at 1200 fps or a 200 gr. bullet at 1000 fps in a semi-automatic isn't a powder puff ... I would call it a muscle car.

Click to expand...

Or, you could actually try shooting real 10mm ammo at real 10mm velocities, not the watered-down junk.

How 'bout Hornady's 180grn 10mm XTP @ 1275fps, or Buffalo Bore's, Underwood's, or DT's 180grn ammo @ 1300fps-1350fps?

A 200grn "10mm" load @ 1000fps aint. That's a 40-level junk load. Try 200gns @ 1200fps, the old Norma pacesetter, sometimes called the "Sonny Crockett Load."

With the benefit of modern hybrid propellants, however, ammo-makers today can push a 200gn 10mm bullet to 1250fps- 1270fps with less pressure than Norma's 10mm ammo of the mid-1980s.

For years, I've been toying with the idea of getting an extra barrel and all the other bits like springs to make my CS40 two-tone 10mm capable. Threads like this don't help ! I think I've accumulated enough magazines to convert a few to 10mm. If a barrel fell into my lap, I think I would go for it. Come to think, that might be a reason to have the original chunky soft grips around

ACEd said:

PS - If you do want to try it with a 4013 - realize there are 2 variants of the 4013 - the early ones (1991, mostly Txxxxxx S/N prefixes) with the single recoil spring or the late ones (mostly Vxxxxxx S/N prefixes) with the double recoil spring and the smaller diameter guide rod and matching slide. The correct recoil springs are near impossible to find for the early single spring pistols.

Click to expand...

Wolff has a variety of recoil springs for the single recoil spring variants giving you options for loads lighter than, or heavier than, what was standard.

The dual recoil spring variants have far less recoil spring options.

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ACEd said:

So no to the double stack 4043, 4046, 4006, 4013TSW, 4053TSW etc

Click to expand...

Right, the main reason is that their magazine won't accept the 10mm's length but additionally the medium frame pistols aren't as beefy as the large frames are.

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10mm is pretty useless for urban EDC. It won't do anything to thugs that 9mm won't also do.

Different story for the outback; 10mm with full power hardcast is used for bear defense.


Most factory ammo in 10mm is barely warmer than .40 loads. This is good for EDC if you do EDC a 10mm. Sig factory ammo is a lot warmer, as are my handloads.

Recoil of full power loads in 1911 guns is pretty stout. I shoot the XDM 5.25 inch and the plastic gun is softer. It's not at all painful but after shooting a box of proper loads in it, switching to the G17 in 9mm is like shooting marshmallows.

Top 10mm loads more or less equal top .357 magnum loads. It is not in the class of the .41 magnum despite what some think.

To me it's a range toy.

colt_saa said:

Yes,
the single stack 4013/4014/4053/4054 can be easily converted from 40S&W to 10MM Auto.
While this is not a task for every shooter, those skilled with tools and familiar with firearms internals will be able to accomplish this. Others will reach out to their favorite gunsmith
As BLUEDOT37 mentioned above, you can rechamber the original factory barrel to 10MM Auto. Also go and check out his post, it is wonderfully documented with images and explanations for each.
You will also need a more stout recoil spring assembly. Now if you are looking for a used one, be aware that some shipped with a single recoil spring while some of the later ones shipped with the dual spring setup

For magazines, all you need to do is remove the spacer in the back of the factory supplied magazines. The spacer comes out fairly easily, just check to see if the crimps need to be drilled through on your magazine or not.

Click to expand...

Question on the mags for this conversion on a single-stack 4013: can't the 9-rd 10XX-series mags be used? Or would they need to be modified, i.e., shortened?

Frank Black said:

Or, you could actually try shooting real 10mm ammo at real 10mm velocities, not the watered-down junk.

How 'bout Hornady's 180grn 10mm XTP @ 1275fps, or Buffalo Bore's, Underwood's, or DT's 180grn ammo @ 1300fps-1350fps?

A 200grn "10mm" load @ 1000fps aint. That's a 40-level junk load. Try 200gns @ 1200fps, the old Norma pacesetter, sometimes called the "Sonny Crockett Load."

With the benefit of modern hybrid propellants, however, ammo-makers today can push a 200gn 10mm bullet to 1250fps- 1270fps with less pressure than Norma's 10mm ammo of the mid-1980s.

Click to expand...

Frank's right. Most 10mm factory ammo is FBI Lite, maybe 50 fps faster than .40. Sig Sauer factory ammo is pretty warm, not FBI Lite. 10mm is a loader's cartridge and Accurate Arms #9 is primo for serious loads. Getting a 180 grain hardcast to 1250 fps or so is easily done.

Univibe said:

10mm is pretty useless for urban EDC. It won't do anything to thugs that 9mm won't also do.

Click to expand...

Huh?

This makes ZERO sense. If the 10mm 'puts down thugs,' then it's not 'useless.' ... And urban EDC for me is a G29 carried AIWB and loaded 10+1 with UW 200gn JHPs @ 1250fps (or maybe closer to 1200fps from the 3.8" barrel).

Different story for the outback; 10mm with full power hardcast is used for bear defense.

Click to expand...

Not 'a different story.' The cartridge's alternative uses only highlight its versatility.

Most factory ammo in 10mm is barely warmer than .40 loads. This is good for EDC if you do EDC a 10mm.

Click to expand...

No, actually it's stooopid to EDC a large-frame 10mm pistol downloaded with the pricier 40-level "10mm" junk ammo from Federal or Remmy.

Rather than do stooopid, I'll just pack my 3rd Gen S&W 411 loaded 11+1 with UW's or DT's 200gn XTP 40S&W ammo @ 1050fps. That makes far more sense. Now I'm EDC-ing a 9mm-size roscoe that packs low-end 10mm 'stopping power' with ammo that's less spendy than the premium "10mm" junk ammo.

Sig factory ammo is a lot warmer, as are my handloads.

Click to expand...

The Sig 180gn ammo (FMJ & V-Crown HP) is good stuff, doing 1250fps. It's credible mid-range 10mm ammo.

Hornady's 180gn 10mm XTP-HP ammo is clocking 1275fps (5" barrel) and is excellent EDC ammo.

The 180gn 10mm JHP ammo from BB/UW/DT is running closer to full-throttle for that bullet-weight, in the 1300-1350fps.

One company offers 180gn FMJ and JHP 10mm ammo @ 1375fps. They load Speer Gold Dots in the latter.

10MM Auto 180 Grain Speer Gold Dot Defensive Ammo - Fenix Ammunition

Frank Black said:

can't the 9-rd 10XX-series mags be used? Or would they need to be modified, i.e., shortened?

Click to expand...

Since 10mm mags are running about twice the price of 4013 mags, there wouldn't be any justification in that. But yes they could be used, the catch slot is in the same location and the 'bumps' on the 10mm mag would have to be removed as they don't match the line-up of the slots in the 4013 magwell.

oldman10mm said:

Since 10mm mags are running about twice the price of 4013 mags, there wouldn't be any justification in that. But yes they could be used, the catch slot is in the same location and the 'bumps' on the 10mm mag would have to be removed as they don't match the line-up of the slots in the 4013 magwell.

Click to expand...

Okay, thanks.

I have like, twenty 10XX-series mags collected over the years, as well as a LNIB 4013 with six mags. That's why I asked.

BLUEDOT37 said:

Wolff has a variety of recoil springs for the single recoil spring variants giving you options for loads lighter than, or heavier than, what was standard.

The dual recoil spring variants have far less recoil spring options.




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Click to expand...

Thanks for info on springs for single spring 4013 - but 2 questions


1. Why did S&W go to the 2 spring design in later 4013? I had understood it had to do with problems with the 40S&W or at least improvements in performance or reliability with the 40 S&W?

2. I had understood there were frame cracking and other problems the early 4006 etc which were basically 9mm converted to 40 S&W. And they redesigned hammer among other fixes. And the 10xx were only made in the thicker more robust steel frames. So would there be potential problems with an Aluminum Framed 4013 converted to 10mm even with the increased thickness.

colt_saa said:

For magazines, all you need to do is remove the spacer in the back of the factory supplied magazines. The spacer comes out fairly easily, just check to see if the crimps need to be drilled through on your magazine or not.

Frank Black said:

Question on the mags for this conversion on a single-stack 4013: can't the 9-rd 10XX-series mags be used? Or would they need to be modified, i.e., shortened?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank,
You must have skipped over the next two sentences of the post

colt_saa said:

For magazines, all you need to do is remove the spacer in the back of the factory supplied magazines. The spacer comes out fairly easily, just check to see if the crimps need to be drilled through on your magazine or not.

Some folks replace the 40S&W follower with a 10MM Auto follower. This prevents the 40S&W follower from tipping. Other members have run the original follower with good reliability.

You can also remove the little nubs on the side of the 10xx magazines, but they will obviously stick out of the frame a little bit

Click to expand...

ACEd said:

Why did S&W go to the 2 spring design in later 4013?
I had understood it had to do with problems with the 40S&W or at least improvements in performance or reliability with the 40 S&W?

Click to expand...

Don't know. The 4006 always had a single recoil spring though.

The 4516 went from the dual to a single & back to the dual recoil spring arrangement.

I suspect that the 4013 came out (1991) during the period when they thought the single recoil spring was the way to go, but later changed like the 4516 did.

By my test measurements the dual/nested recoil springs exerts (20#) with the slide fully rearward (at full compression). The single recoil spring is a (16#) spring though I've never tested it.
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ACEd said:

I had understood there were frame cracking and other problems the early 4006 etc which were basically 9mm converted to 40 S&W.
And they redesigned hammer among other fixes.
And the 10xx were only made in the thicker more robust steel frames.
So would there be potential problems with an Aluminum Framed 4013 converted to 10mm even with the increased thickness.

Click to expand...

Could be. I've got almost 1000 rounds of handloads thru mine so far without any issues.

I believe the frame where the slide stop pin goes thru is usually where cracks can start, likely from the closing force of the slide especially with a stronger recoil spring.
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Frank Black said:

Question on the mags for this conversion on a single-stack 4013: can't the 9-rd 10XX-series mags be used? Or would they need to be modified, i.e., shortened?

Click to expand...

I modified a 1006 mag (cut-off alignment/lock-out knubs from it's side) to fit in my 1013 & for exact reasons unknown it always had feeding issues with it.

The distance between the 1006 mag's feeding lips is slightly wider than the 4013's & there's some difference in their shape.

Yours might have better luck with one though.

No biggie for me, I have plenty of 4013 mags plus the 1006 mag looks dumb sticking out of the grip frame.

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BLUEDOT37 said:

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I modified a 1006 mag (cut-off alignment/lock-out knubs from it's side) to fit in my 1013 & for exact reasons unknown it always had feeding issues with it.

The distance between the 1006 mag's feeding lips is slightly wider than the 4013's & there's some difference in their shape.

Yours might have better luck with one though.

No biggie for me, I have plenty of 4013 mags plus the 1006 mag looks dumb sticking out of the grip frame.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I get that they'd stick out unless shortened to 4013 magwell length.

I've got plenty of 10mm mags I could modify for the conversion IF it would work. I've only got a few 4013 mags, so I didn't want to convert them if some 10mm 'donor' mags could be used instead. That's why I asked.