Lucky 13, Pre-39, X Pistols

DARE · #1 02-25-2022, 06:57 PM

My dad's favorite number was 13. He was a gun store owner, a gun writer and a promoter. He brought Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper among others to Dallas for seminars and shooting sessions.
One of his friends was Larry Seecamp. Seecamp made a small pistol in .25 ACP and .32 ACP. They offered a limited edition set that you could order the SN you wanted.
My dad asked for 13. They said 13 was already taken, but he could have 1313. That was agreed to. Larry said he had an old S&W 9MM that was also numbered 1313 and he would send that along as well.
Here are some pics of the gun and the magazine. Only have the one magazine and no other accessories.
gmborkovic mentioned a 1 5/8" base plate on the magazine. The measurement I got was 1 1/2"
Thanks for looking.

Lucky 13, Pre-39, X Pistols-20230630_082605-2-jpg

Lucky 13, Pre-39, X Pistols-20230630_082605-2-jpg

Lucky 13, Pre-39, X Pistols-20240519_131154-jpg

gmborkovic · #2 02-25-2022, 07:15 PM

David, thanks for prompt reply to my PM. That is a nice early pre-39.
Your mag is a later factory 39-2 mag with a plastic follower, and a short,
1 line base plate. I like the short de-cocker and non-relieved wooden grip
on your gun. And the short duckbill receiver. Mike

DARE · #3 01-31-2023, 10:14 PM

Wondering what S&W called this model. I think model numbers came along about 1957 or 1958. This gun was shipped Nov of 1955.
The Standard Catalog of S&W 4th Edition refers to it as a Pre-39. The .38 M&P became the Model 10. The Combat Magnum became the Model 19.
Did this gun have a name before it became the Model 39?

kwill1911 · #4 01-31-2023, 10:39 PM

It was called the S&W 9mm Automatic Pistol

kwill1911 · #5 02-01-2023, 02:13 PM

DARE · #6 02-01-2023, 03:35 PM

Thank you Kevin,
The SN on the gun pictured is X140. Wonder if they used the 1140 gun and made the 1 an X?

kwill1911 · #7 02-01-2023, 03:50 PM

They did not. There were 41 X numbered prototypes in various configurations as S&W was developing the new gun. X140 was used for that manual and in ad slicks.

DARE · #8 02-01-2023, 03:53 PM

Wow!
Would be fun to have an X gun.

kwill1911 · #9 02-01-2023, 04:42 PM

Here are the two that preceded it:

kwill1911 · #10 02-01-2023, 04:44 PM

The first X numbered prototype was X46. X47 was not an automatic pistol but X48 and X49 were.

gmborkovic · #11 02-01-2023, 05:08 PM

The picture on the green booklet is an artists rendering, not a photo.
X140 is a real prototype 9MM automatic. Was in the possession of Mr. W. G. Gunn, pres. of S&W in Aug of 1954. From the few notes I have on the X series.

kwill1911 · #12 02-01-2023, 05:33 PM

Quote:

The picture on the green booklet is an artists rendering, not a photo.

Well, this may be splitting hairs, but, like many advertising illustrations of the day, it is a rendering made by tracing the photograph. The artist then shaded it and sharpened the details that wouldn't show up in a photograph.

ISCS Yoda · #13 02-01-2023, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Seecamp made a small pistol in .25 ACP and .32 ACP. They offered a limited edition set that you could order the SN you wanted.

There was a discussion recently about this and someone posted a Seecamp which had someone's name, a woman's name as I recollect, as the serial number. Kinda cool.

In another somewhat recent thread someone(s) discussed this Seecamp California edition made in Milford, CT. I forget what the story was; I need to find that thread, I reckon.

gmborkovic · #14 02-05-2023, 10:07 AM

Kwill, check your notes on X47. My copy of the engineering dept. notes X47 as a 9MM auto pistol. Alum. frame. Mar.2-49. 9MM Automatic. Double
action. Mike

kwill1911 · #15 02-05-2023, 10:20 AM

You're correct. My mistake.

DARE · #16 02-05-2023, 10:52 AM

Kevin and Mike,
You guys have some serious knowledge. I had never heard about the X guns.
I would like to hear all you know about these guns and I'll bet the others here would like to as well.
You should start a new thread and share this knowledge. Or put it here and we can modify the name of this thread to reflect the new subject matter.

cougar015 · #17 02-05-2023, 11:12 AM

Great info and pics from Mike and Kevin. The green and white booklet is a sought after commodity and not easy to find. The X frame models are rarely seen and I can recall about 4 of them being auctioned off in the last 25 years. A good Forum member friend of mine just obtained one last year. If I recall correctly, it was X-139. At the 2018 Symposium Richard McMillan had 3 X frames on display. Glendale will be a great place to talk about this subject as there will be a few well versed members in attendance. Might even see one there.

scott1970 · #18 02-05-2023, 11:13 AM

My Henry .41 Mag rifle happens to be serial number 13.

kwill1911 · #19 02-05-2023, 11:29 AM

I've thought about writing an article for the Journal about the development of the Automatic Pistol. I think there would be an audience of about 4 people.

DARE · #20 02-05-2023, 11:42 AM

I think you underestimate the audience. I would certainly read it.
Maybe a thread is not the correct venue, but think you should share your knowledge.

John_M52 · #21 02-05-2023, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

There was a discussion recently about this and someone posted a Seecamp which had someone's name, a woman's name as I recollect, as the serial number. Kinda cool.

In another somewhat recent thread someone(s) discussed this Seecamp California edition made in Milford, CT. I forget what the story was; I need to find that thread, I reckon.

The Cali edition added a tiny lever with a detent and spring to the trigger as a cross bar type safety to make it legal in the state, if that is what you are asking about.

gmborkovic · #22 02-05-2023, 11:46 AM

David, have a little bit of knowledge. I have acquired what I think is fact
from older collectors thru the years. I have recorded these "facts" in my old black composition note book that I had left over from high school. Its tattered and has several beer can rings on some of the pages. I guess every collector has a "tid bit" notebook.

gmborkovic · #23 02-05-2023, 02:34 PM

Rich, just a quick note on the green and white booklet. I have managed thru the years to gather up six booklets for my pre39s and early 4 digit m-39s. None of the booklets green color matches any one of the others. I think they used them up in to the 4 digit Sn. run. I just got m-39, 7251.
Shipped 12-12-58. By chance there was a single page folded parts list with green ink. The date on the back page was 12-58. Somebody at the factory liked green ink.

DARE · #24 05-18-2024, 08:12 PM

Finally got around to ordering a letter. It came today.

Lucky 13, Pre-39, X Pistols-20240518_172917-jpg

cougar015 · #25 05-18-2024, 09:22 PM

Dave, Thanks for sharing the letter. 11/22/88 is my son's birthday! I have updated your guns info in the SWCA data base.

DARE · #26 05-20-2024, 04:23 PM

Just read a great article from the Spring 2006 S&WCA Journal.
"The Smith & Wesson Model 39 - Its Variations and Modifications" by Richard McMillan.
A couple of things that pertain to this thread I found most interesting.

There were 31 X serial number Model 39 prototype or preproduction guns built between October 28, 1948 and August 10, 1954. Included were a number of Army double action test pistols, six steel frame single actions, made at the Army request, and at least one gun in .380 caliber.

The first 1,500 or so guns are referred to by collectors as Pre-39s. Serial numbers between 1001 and 2600. Model 41 serial numbers were intermixed, so not 1600 guns.

SWCA members can go to the SWCA website and read the article. Non members should join SWCA. The article is that good. Everything I wanted to know about the Model 39.

kwill1911 · #27 05-20-2024, 05:22 PM

The Fall 2023 issue has a deeper dive into the development of the Model 39 and quite a bit of information on the X guns, for those interested.