That was not the answer I got when I called and ask about the Witness last summer.

STock number is 49718 load rating listed is 18# and says on package for EAA Witness Series, the 18# will not cycle Remington 185 target loads and WW 175 JHPST will not cycle reliably in my Witness 10mm Wonder finish, but does fine with the full 10mm loadings. They list a 20# also IIRC on their website.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Guys,
I'm asking about magazine springs.
Regards,
BM1

Picky,picky, just no pleasing some people.

Stock # for the Magazine springs is 74263 and that is the 5% extra power listed as for AT-84, CZ-75, TZ-75, P-9 AND Witness all calibers.

Hope this will get you fixed up.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Thanks Old Navy,
The 74263 that is listed on Wolff's site is a 10% spring but it is not for the EAA Witness-P 10 m.m.
That's what Wolff told me.
He is going to talk to EAA/Tangfoglio at the SHOT show, we'll see.
Regards,
BM1

The P carry uses the same magazines as far as I have been told. You could call EAA and ask or check out their website to see if they are different, but I seem to remember that they all use the same magazines, Steel, Polly and P Carry, only difference are number of rounds held, ie compact or full size gun.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I'll check with EAA on Monday on the part numbers and on how many magazine springs they use in the Witness-P fullsize for all the calibers.
Regards,
BM1

This is the same impression that I had. The EAA/Tanfoglio and CZ magazine springs were, indeed, interchangeable. (This is what their web catalog conveyed to me!)

I hope that what I stated wasn't confusing.

Scott

Went to the range again today and shot the EAA Tanfoglio Witness-P 10 m.m.
I backed the recoil spring down from the 20# Wolff to an 18# because it wasn't feeding my reloads.
It seemed like the slide was either cycling to quick with the 20# spring and/or the magazine springs are weak,
as I suspect.
The 18# spring did the trick for today, I am so imperssed with this firearm.
But, if I ever get some better mag springs, I will go back to the 20# recoil spring,
it's much better with the hotter loads.
My search is still on for some stronger mag springs.
Regards,
BM1

Order a set of those Wolff springs, like I did. All the Witness guns use the same magazines and ye.s the guns are very impressive. The 20 lb spring will only be needed if you are planing to do some very hot hand loading and exceading the original 10mm Norma loadings. If I want to do that I will buy a S&W 610 for that type of loading and shooting

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Spoke to EAA via email and they told me that "the magazine springs are caliber specific".
I was at my local dealer yesterday disassembling many different CZ magazines to compare the springs,
they are similar but wouldn't allow the full 15 rounds into the mag.
I was told that maybe a mag spring from a Magnum Research Baby Eagle in .45 ACP might work.
The search continues.....
Regards,
BM1

All I can tell you is the Wolff springs I gave you the number for work great in both my 15 & 12 round magazines. I have told you what has worked in my Witness magazines for about a year now, from here on I can't be of any more help. Happy shooting and hope you get the problem solved.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Thank you very much Old Navy,
But,
I have only had this EAA Tanfoglio Witness-P 10 m.m for only one month and its my first EAA of any kind.
What caliber are your 15 & 12 round magazines ?
Regards,
BM1

Man I just read my post above and I sounded kind of gruff, sorry about that no foul intended.

Hey man is there any other caliber besides 10mm???

They are in 3 10mm magazines, and I will probably order a couple of 15 rnd 10mm magazines next month.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

You said it, Brother!

Scott

I have recently decided to get rid of all my 45's except my CS45 (I refuse to replace it with a G29) and I would love to have that converted to 10mm if possible. That way I don't have to reload anything but 38/357 and 10mm ammo.

I may get a Model 610 this summer when they become available.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Old Navy,
I just got off of the phone with Dave at Wolff gunsprings.
I went with the heavier ones, P/N 74273, I'll give them a try.
Dave said they have had proplems with guys [like me] putting them in the Tanfoglio Witness-P 10 m.m.
Both the P/N's 74263 and the 74273 (both packs of 3).
I'll let you/all know and he (Dave from Wolff) wanted me to report back also.
Also, the new 610's are out already, I have older ones.
Regards,
BM1

Let me/us know how they work also.

Speaking of Tanfoglio magazines, I have three 10mm mag's with two being the 12 rnd mags and one 15 rnd but can see no difference in them, they have the same springs and followers. I have put them back to back and can see no difference in length or tapper at the top. What in the devil is the difference in the blasted magazines???? Is it something internial that I can't see???

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Old Navy,
The three +15% Wolff magazine springs for the Witness-P 10mm came in today.
Installed them, loaded them but can only get 14 rounds into the 15 rd. magazines.
I'll call Dave @ Wolff on monday and see about getting the +10% springs also.
The slight difference in wire diameter times the # of coils will probably be the slight difference that I need.
It will almost take the 15th round but not quite.
Seems to feed OK, I will will see at the range next week.
Regards,
BM1

That's great, hope you have good results.

__________________
Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Well FWIW,
This EAA (European American Amory) Witness-P 10 m.m. w/4.50" barrel has been my CCW all winter in a Galco "Miami Classic" shoulder holster that is for the HK compact-45 (#428), fits like a glove.
I have put allot of different ammo through it and it has been flawless since I went down to the
18# spring for my target reloads and the 20# spring for the carry ammo, I am so impressed with this firearm and so were two friends of mine that they bought them also one in 10 m.m. and one a .45 ACP.
Regards,
BM1

GMCHenry,
It has taken me some time to find one,
But, last week I found a LNIB Razorback with the match barrel and it's great.
The chamber it a little tight for my reloads even though they all fit my 10 m.m. gage.
Factory ammo ran great, I'll have to check my (3) die sets for the smallest .40/10m.m. sizing die.
Regards,
BM1

For the price it will be a good pistol. Even if you have to do some work to it, $300 is cheaper than what you can get a S&W 10xx series for, assuming you can find one. In short if you can't find the S&W go with the witness.

__________________
J.D. Roy

Subject: EAA Witness-P 10 m.m. 15 rd. Magazine springs?
For those that are still interested in this mag spring issue.
I emailed Wollf Springs again and this is what I asked:

Hi Dave,
I spoke with you last year and you were going to speak to Tangfoglio/EAA at the 08' SHOT Show about this.
I have an EAA Witness-P in 10 m.m. with 15 rd. magazines and it could use a stronger springs.
I tried your #74273 and they work but only allow me to load 14 rounds.
Maybe your #74263 would allow me to get the 15th one in due to a smaller wire size?

The recoil spring pack #74263 that I received works great with the
18#, 20# and 22# CZ springs depending on how hot the factory loads/reloads are.

Any and all information that you might have on this pistol would be very helpful.
I should be in your database.

Thank you and Happy Holidays

This was their response:
Sorry but the guys at EAA have not provided much input to the problem.
I’ll try again in Orlando in January.

So that's it?
Regards,
BM1

My birthday present this summer was a Witness .45 with a factory .22 conversion kit. I am amazed at the accuracy and reliability with either slide. Now I am torn between ordering a 10mm slide from the factory ($289) or laying out the $399 my dealer wants for a used complete 10mm in Wonder finish. Figure I can pick up dies and a couple boxes of factory loads with the difference.

__________________
I need ammo, not a ride.

E.a.a. witness, is one of the biggest p.o.s. out there. I bought two, one poly, one compact, both in .40 and neither one would shoot more than two rds. before jamming, i sent them back and they sat there for 14 weeks for one and the other is still there because they are waiting on a magazine for it, 16 weeks for a magazine!

If you want to see how they treat their customers, just read their web site on their repair policy, if you dare to ask about your firearm, it goes to the back of the line.

NEVER BUY A WITNESS!!!!! blue

Hey Folks!
I gotta agree with bluealtered. After 5 different witnesses 3 10mm 2 45's I gave up. FTF FTE cracked frames and slides. I could never get a box of ammo through any of them. I am talking factory loads.
For me and I am tight with money I would spend the money and buy a quaility gun.
For whats it worth the eaa witness started me leaning towards S&W. After the first 645 I haven't looked back since. For quaility and resale value you can't go wrong.
Take care and God Bless...HT

__________________
Jesus is Lord
John 3:16

The older style with the flat top/slab side slides are the stronger slides.
I have shot many nuclear loads, hotter than the "Old Norma", NO Problems.
Just wish I could get stronger mag springs, the stock springs feed fine, they just feel soft.



Regards,
BM1

I also just bought a LNIB Dan Wesson Razorback with that same Match Barrel and two mags.
Found the chamber to be a little tight also.
Had to clearance the extractor a little and polish the breech face to help the last round to feed, all is well now.
Added a 20# recoil spring to it, I'll shoot it tomorrow and see if it's to much spring.
Based on my Witness-P it should be good for the factory loads and my hot reloads.
Might have to go down to a #18 like I did in my Witness-P to be able to cycle everything.
Regards,
BM1

More from Wollf Springs:
I have been going back and forth with them and it got a little heated at one point;

Previously;
Hi Dave,
I spoke with you last year and you were going to speak to Tangfoglio/EAA at the SHOT Show about this.
I have an EAA Witness-P in 10 m.m. with 15 rd. magazines and it could use a stronger springs.
I tried your #74273 and they work but only allow me to load 14 rounds.
Maybe your #74263 would allow me to get the 15th one in due to a smaller wire size?
The recoil calibration pack #13121 that I received works great with the
18# and 20# CZ springs depending on how hot the 10 m.m. factory loads/reloads are.
If I sent you one of the original 15 round springs, could you match it up?
Thank you and Happy New Year,
BM1

NEW;

BM1,
Same wire size for both. Pitch of the coils is different. Would not affect capacity. Probably won’t even stop by the EAA booth at the SHOT.
They are and have been of no help and continue to be a thorn in my side. There are no immediate plans for production of 10mm mag springs.


Hi,
Maybe your #74263 would allow me to get the 15th one in due to it having less coils?
If I sent you one of the original 15 round springs, could you match it up?
Thank you,
BM1


BM1
Sorry but we’re all done for the time being.


All done, meaning you can't or won't help me?
Regards,
BM1


BM1
There is nothing else for me to do. I’m sorry but we’ve come to the end of the line.
I have no springs that are suitable for application in your gun.


Hi,
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here.
All I'm Saying is that the #74273 work GREAT but only allow me to load 14 rounds,
and it's close to getting the 15th one in.
Maybe your #74263 would allow me to get the 15th one in due less coils?
This is the one that I was told by the forum members that you guys recommended.
There are many folks on the internet forums like the Smith and Wesson forum, 10 m.m. Talk
that are keeping an eye on what I/we do here.
If I could sent you one of the original 15 round springs, maybe could you match it up with, who knows?
I don't know if there is another double stack like it out there.
Some say the Baby Eagle mags will work.
Your recoil spring packs have worked great in all my 10 m.m's., Witness-P, Dan Wesson Razorback,
S&W 3-1006's, 1026, 1046, 1066, 3-1076's and a 1086 and also my 1911 Smiths and Colts in .45 ACP.
Regards,
BM1


Sorry BM1 but you are beating a dead horse.
You are not the first to request a better spring for your 10mm and this is the 37th time that I have checked specs and compared springs in our inventory.
At some point in the future when we have time we hope to address the issue.
Until then we will continue to address priorities on our very long list of things to do.
Everyone on the forums is entitled to their opinion, right or wrong.
We have never recommended springs for the 10mm because we don’t offer them.
I don’t accept springs in the mail for spec or comparison.
I will not address the issue again until we are ready to provide a viable alternative.

OK,
I now understand your point,
now that you have explained to me the number of times that you have had this request.
I'll order your #74263 and just try it, so as to maybe to get the 15th one in due to it having less coils.
The #74273 work great but only allow me to load 14 rounds (almost the 15th) and the size and shape are close.
Thank you again for all your trouble,
I'm sure you are quite busy now with the political winds blowing in the direction that they are.
Sincerely,
BM1

Well,
Here we are a year later, I liked the Witness-P 10 m.m. full size so much that when I came across a .45 ACP compact, I had to have it.
The 45 shoots equally as well as the 10 m.m., no problems to date, including my nuclear hand loads in both calibers.
Note that these are the older ones that have the heavy slides (no cracking) and no equipment rail.
Regards,
BM1

]

I would like to relay a sad TZ-75 story.

After years of looking for one in 10mm (the ultimate), I finally found one and purchased it for $415 with two magazines. Bought two more mags from EAA which was my first experience with being assaulted by service that makes the IRS looks stalwart by comparison.

The mags eventually came and I eventually got around to shooting. I should have been worried when the mags came with a pink piece of paper that said essentially if they don't work it's not their problem.

I got every 10mm factory load I could get my hands on. A variety from Double Tap, Remington UMC, Hornady (180s and 200s), and some comerical reloads. None of them, not even the FMJ UMCs feed with any better than 4 out of 5 reliability with any of the four mags. This is ~20% FTF. Never had a FTE. I figured it had to be a new-pistol stickyness issue. So I shot it 200 times. Still no better (though I am now much poorer). I called EAA they said essentially to not bother them. That there was something wrong with me.

Then I got every recoil spring pack I could from Wolff and tried each one with the same loads. Never managed anything better than 90% reliability. I then thought it might need to have custom loads tailored to it.

I reloaded cartridges of all different power levels graduated OAL and tried things like chamfering the case mouths. Nothing improved function. I polished the feed ramp very carefully using lapping compound and a wooden peg. No improvement, though I used this method with success on an older TZ-75 in 9mm.

I read of Robar putting NP3 on the mag followers. Lubrication somehow improving function. I tried some graphite and some teflon lubricant to see if it did anything, testing this idea. It did not. I called Robar and found out how much it would cost to do four mags. Too much!

That is when I realized that I could never trust this pistol, even if Robar fixed it. I sold it to a friend who understood full well of all its problems. He is convinced he can fix it. So far he hasn't, but I will post if he does.

For the record it was a TZ-75 with the flat top with the square slide sides. Supposedly the stronger type. Never had a problem with it being damaged or not taking full power 10mm!

So I looked to see what was out there. Bren Tens are really a collector piece. As I saw it, there was a 1911 in 10mm, or a ParaOrd 40 Short and Weak converted to 10mm, or there was the plastic Glock 20, which I tested out, but just can't accept because of its plasticness. And there was the 10xx series S&W.

I like the extreme robustness of the 10xx series. I noticed they were beefier in critical areas like the slide around the ejection port compared to the Tanfoglio. I liked Stainless. I liked the trigger (no gritty creep on SA). I liked the single stack slimness. I found a 1076 that looked great and went for it. So far, it has been a great pistol. Accuracy has been the best of any auto-pistol I have ever fired except for my Buckmark Medalist.

EAA Witness-P 10 m.m.
It amazes me every time I bring it to the range.
Bench rested at 50 ft.
The picture speaks a thousand words.
Regards,
BM1

Have to agree with you. The only handgun I have that doesn't have S&W on it is an EAA Witness 10mm.

I have heard horror stories about them but I found a good one because it just works.

Had a G20 - sold it. Had a 1076 - sold it because the grip was too narrow to hold on to w/ FP 10mm. LOVE my Witness 10mm (but my groups aren't as tight as yours BM1).

The only negative is that my brass ends up further away than the target was.

S&W, why aren't you making a 15rd 10mm semi-auto?!

You don't often see a seemingly random HiPower slam, let alone in a 10mm Tanfoglio thread.

__________________
NRA Certified Instructor

Thanks for pointing us to this thread BM1. I have come so close to purchasing an EAA 10mm...someday I will jump on one!

I have been enjoying the Glock 29 that I purchased back when the itch for the EAA started!