I have a few of 1006's and a couple 1076's, a 1066 and 1086.
I have the opportunity to pick up an EAA (European American Amory) Witness-P 10 m.m. w/4.50" barrel.
It's LNIB with all the paperwork, two 15 rd. mags and even the cleaning brushes.
It appears to be unfired and never holstered. It looks like a copy of a CZ.
Can anyone give me any information about it and if it's worth $300.00 OTD ?
Thanks,
BM1

I have a few of 1006's and a couple 1076's, a 1066 and 1086.
I have the opportunity to pick up an EAA (European American Amory) Witness-P 10 m.m. w/4.50" barrel.
It's LNIB with all the paperwork, two 15 rd. mags and even the cleaning brushes.
It appears to be unfired and never holstered. It looks like a copy of a CZ.
Can anyone give me any information about it and if it's worth $300.00 OTD ?
Thanks,
BM1

I have heard good and bad about the Witenesses, I would say that $300.00 is a pretty safe investment in one.

If its a metal frame one JUMP ON IT! , a poly frame one I'd pass on . I just didn't like the feel or the reliability issues I've heard about them . They both are worth the $300 easy .

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39-2,59,3913,M&P40
1006,1066

Don't have any experience with the Witness but do with some of their other products. I don't think they would know a quality product if you slapped them in the face with it. And even if they do know they are importing complete junk products , they have no qualms about it. They must be in good with the man upstairs for a law suit to have not put them out of business by now.

I have a Witness 10mm Wonder FS and a friend has a P Carry in 45ACP and it is amazing what kind of **** hand loads the gun will feed. It shoots as good or better then most polly guns and he says it more accurate then his Glock 45 ACP.

If I was to try a polly again it would be a Witness because of quality & price. I had a M&P 45ACP and didn't like it and got rid of the thing. The only down side these guns is EAA (importer) is very poor with after sales service or warranty.

I plan on trying to pick up a nice used 10mm Witness Wonder finish this coming year to go with my full size 10mm Wonder finish model.

PS: The steel 10mm is built heavier at contact point of rail & frame and barrel lock up thyen my S&W 1006, and most people think the S&W is buiilt like a tank. If the metal in the Tanfoglio is a good as S&W then it is for sure stronger.

Their target models are built lighter duty and will have frame problems if full power 10mm loads are used. Their Hunter model is a 6" barrel model SA that is also built like a tank and is a real hunting auto loader. Check it out at EAA website.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

CZ doesn't make a 10 mm.

Bad man go to czforum.com it's all there and then some I have a cz75b it's a very accurate and comfortable to shoot But the trigger needs some help you will find Witness post's on the czforum all so

Sure they do. It's known as a Dan Wesson 1911.

http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=80

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-Greg

I think there were some 40's and maybe 38 Supers that had frame problems in the target models using hot loads.

I have never understood guys buying target guns and then shooting hot loads in them. I have a friend that does that, says he shoots better. He does run through the pistols, two S&W PC's 1911's, a Tanfoglio, and several Colt's that I can remember.

In my 10mm's I don't make a habbit of shooting hot hand loads that are hotter then the orignal Norma, and most is light target loads and or Rem factory loads. Hottest factory has been WW 175g STHP and one box of Corbon that I picked up dirt cheap on a clearance rack. The bad news there was they only had the one box, and probably 10 or 15 boxes of WW 380 that were $6
a box. I called a buddy about the 380's and he came down with check book and bought all of them.

I can, with Rem 185g TC's, connect bullet holes at the 21' line with the Tanfoglio, but that's my range limit for really close shooting with my old eye's. With my RIA 1911A1 5" I can do about the same thing, but the Tanfoglio probably when you get down to actual measuring probably tad more close with the grouping.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Hey Folks! My advice is avoid the EAA line at all costs. If CZ made the 97b in 10mm I'd be the first to buy. You simply cannot compare CZ to the Witness. My experience consists of 4 different 10mms ( 2 compacts, a Full size, and a Match target). The most horrible guns I have ever owned. The only ones I have ever lost money on.
When I had my FFL I sold 2 Witnesses and wound up buying them back because my customers were beyond disappointed. I'd rather take the loss than lose good cutomers and now friends.
Factory support is non exsistent, hateful, and useless. I wish they would spend some money and make/import functional guns instead of advertisements.
The 10mms I had jammed in everyway possible including some that my gunsmith, range officer, a couple of LE guys and I have never seen or heard of.
The most I ever was able to shoot at one time was 100 rds through the compact. 4 hours later I boxed it up and traded it off. And yes I warned the new owner of the problems. I didnt get but 1/4 of what I paid for it. Just wanted some relief.
Unless you enjoy stomach ulcers, stay away from EAA and their headaches.
Take care and God Bless...HT

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Jesus is Lord
John 3:16

Just took a look at czforum.com clone club have not been for some time The folks that have them seem to love them If I wanted a 10mm for $300.I go for it It could the best gun you ever owned

Mine (Witness 10mm) is my HD gun currently, but is being replaced by my new GP100 just due to no magazine spring worry and a hell of a buy on the Ruger.

PS: I have talked to about 5 or 6 Witness owers and all have raved about the gun and one is a LEO carrying a full sized Polly 10mm for duty gun and owns a Witness 10mm Hunter that I have drooled over and got to shoot one time. It was some of his hot hand loads that was according to him about 1650fps. Nothing like a 6" 10mm with 2x7 leopould(sp) scope, and some fine hand loads. Man at 25 yards standing no rest I did a 2" group, and that is what I do with my Ruger Mk III Target Competition with 2-7 scope standing shooting no rest.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I have 2 Witness 10mm. Couldn't find a Smith in my area. I have a full size Poly for HD and P-Carry for a truck gun. Both of them hold 16 rounds of 10mm and I have a M6 on the HD gun.

The Witness 10mm is a great gun, I liken it to the poor man's Bren 10. They are hell for stout. Very enjoyable to shoot. Two problems, the ejector throws brass to hell and gone. 10mm brass is scarce so I don't shoot it much until I can get the ejector modified. The other problem is the front sight is integral to the slide and it shoots low. The alternative there is to mill off the sight and install a dovetail and a new set of sights. Other than these two problems it is a great gun. I'm kinda looking for a smith to work on the gun.

I have two Witnesses, one in .40 and the other in 10mm. They are well built, robust and accurate(despite the 10mm's idiosyncracies).

If you can acquire it for a good price jump on it.

CBPOTEL You need a stonger recoil spring and how low do you shoot You may need to change the rear sight that easyer change out the recoil spring be for you change the sights You never can tell one move at a time

They may work good, but based off other products I've seen I would not shoot an EAA product with my left hand (I'm right handed) wearing a kevlar helmet and a flak jacket. I don't trust them that much. I know there aren't other options in that sytle and in that caliber, but I'd suck it up and spend the extra bucks to buy something I hope (obviously one never knows) is a lot safer.

Hey that's fine dude, leaves more of them for us who know a good gun when we see and handle them.

That said just don't go bashing the guns you know nothing about because they are not a S&W, Colt or some other brand you like. I have several S&W's and love them and trust my life with them, just as I would and do with my Ruger, Tanfoglio or RIA pistols.

My Tanfoglio is always in my cars trunk when traveling, just in case I might need serious stopping power & range over my CS45 that stays in my consoul. But when at home it is loaded and ready to defend my home & family. I seldom take my 1006 when traveling because it is more valuble and does not drive tac's like the Italian Stallion does with its target sights.

PS: Only handgun I ever witness blow up was a Colt 1911 that came apart from broken a part. And the one rifle was a friends new Browning automatic in 308 when he was target practicing at the range. Should seen the end of the barrel, you would never belive what casued that.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I'm not bashing them because they are not a big name US-made gun, in fact I am not even bashing the Tangfolio guns. What I'm saying is from what I've seen first hand, the unscrupulous importer typically sales junk, knows it, and doesn't care. That's probably the reason their customer service is so poor is because they know if they fixed every problem they would be bankrupt. They probalby go out of their way for every 1 out 20 complaints so they have a few people out there that have something good to say. You even said youself that EAA customer service is horrible. As for guns blowing up, I alluded to the fact that their is always a chance something will go wrong when you instantly pressurize a little metal cylinder with tens of thousands of pounds of pressure. ****** happens and always will. EAA however doesn't do their part to ensure the buyer gets a safe and reliable product. For that reason, I cannot trust the rest of their products either to be safe or to go bank when its supposed to, or God forbids needs to.

I finally had a chance to get to the range today with the EAA Witness-P 10 m.m.
Put five different types of ammo thru it with ZERO problems.
I even put my nuclear reloads thru it. I was very impressed with the accuracy.
It does get your attention compared to my heavier Stainless Steel framed Smith and Wesson's.

ShelbyV8,
Mine looks just like yours but without the acc. rail.
Regards,
BM1

Okay, its time for me to jump into this conversation. I have a full-sized 10mm Witness in their proprietary "Wonder" finish.

I have but three pieces of advice for anyone considering purchasing a Witness pistol:

a) First, install either an 18 or 20 pound Wollf-brand recoil (and extra-power) firing pin springs. This is so that you can shoot "Double Tap" strength (read: "original" Norma power-level) loads with impunity. You will appreciate the difference immediately!

b) Field strip the pistol and check the bearing surfaces for rough spots. Not every pistol is perfect and a bit of "fluff and buff" can alleviate a lot of frustration down the road.

c) Check and double-check the magazines! many of the "failure-to-feed" problems associated with the 10mm Witness pistols are due to their 10-round magazines! If you can, either get rid of them and replace them with 15-round magazines, or replace the springs in the 10 rounders. These "Clintonista" magazines tend to jam on the last round fed from them on a regular basis. They are either best avoided or reinforced with quality Wolff-brand replacement springs.

Last, but not least, shoot the sucker in! Shoot it, shoot it and shoot it some more! Put at least 250 jam-free rounds through it befor employing it as a "carry" weapon. BREAK IT IN! Remember: Your life depends upon the pistol's reliabliity!

Scott

Gunfan Don't hold bach tell how you reay feel about the gun do you like it or not

Sorry about the spelling new years will be here be for you know it can't start to soon you know

My experience with CZ style pistols.........Tanfoglio was the first copier of the CZ design. They were hit, mostly miss in the 80's. I purchased a supposedly better quality clone back in the mid-80's called the AT-84..........Tanfoglio parts finished in Solothurn, Switzerland. This was a 9MM that shot okay, in spite of the fact that the barrel bushing looked like it was reamed with a rock. This was back in the day when the Tanfoglio factory had heat treatment problems due to the fact of intermittent power outages in that part of Italy........Sold that pistol!

Next bite at the CZ hype was a CZ-75 that was being imported for the first time by Action Arms of Philly, PA...........This was the real deal........excellent machining and very accurate. Converted this pistol to single action only with a custom fit barrel bushing........my benchmark for a 9MM pistol..........I laugh at you High-Power fans!

I personally would be leary of a Tanfoglio built 10mm, but for $300........what exactly can you expect? If I was shopping for a 10MM auto, I'd be looking for a used Delta Elite. A Witness pistol is a downgrade from a Smith 10mm........not to mention a Colt!

I like my Tanfoglio Witness. I simply feel that there are some thins that will serve others that want their pistol to work well. They are VERY strong pistols and, when properly cared for, can provide years of yeoman service. While not as refined as either a Colt or Smith & Wesson, the Witness line of pistols can serve the shooter well. If anything is required, it is usually some minor "tweaking."

Scott

I worked for action in Philly along time ago the big gun at the time was the uzie I could had one cheap at the time if I wanted one

The new Tanfoglio is bigger, heavier gun the the the previous ones built prior to about '04 or there abouts. I have two S&W 10mm's and the Tanfoglio is build with bigger locking lugs and the contack points where the frame and slide slam togather are also bigger then the S&W's. I realize there could be a difference in the quality of the hardness of the metals.

I did as a precaution after inital break-in replace the recoil & firing pin springs and magazine springs with Wolff springs 18 & 21 lb spring depending on what I am shooting, standard WW STJHP or Rem TC target I have to use the 18lb and any hot loads to or beyond original Norma loading I switch to 21lb spring. The 21 lb spring is to stout for reliability with the factory ammo. Never used DT, so I can not say with them. I have some that will be well past 1500 fps that have been through the Wonder Thunder w/o and problems.

I just sent 100 hot (1350ish) 180 gr TC reloads te other day with 21lb spring and no problems other then range owner coming into range area to see what was rattling the building. Due to weight of the gun recoil was never a problem.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

If I can get my brass to land within 3 or 4 feet I feel I am using the righ spring Some folks feel the main sring is all a part of the balance The recoil spring I am using in my cz 75b 9mm will keep the brass within 3 or 4 ft. when shooting 115 124 gr. and 90 gr will land at my feet And I have no idea what wt.the spring is All I know it works fine and that works for me HAPPY NEAR YEAR

The recoil spring doesn't seem to have that much of an effect on distance the shells are thrown. The ejector on these guns seems to really be the problem for the wild thrown brass.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Warrenag: Thanks for the info on the recoil spring, hadn't thought about that. I have had another Witness in .45 ACP that shot about 18 or so inches low at 10 yards. I didn't want to fuss with it so I got rid of it. My load was my std. IPSC load of 5.7 gr of 231 topped off with 200 gr SWC which was dead on in my 1911s. Though I am sorry I got rid of it. but the 10mm will stay and I will figure it out because I like the 10mm.

The CZ Clone forum has had several threads on the ejector problems of the 10 mm Witness, the usual cure was the modification of the ejector. I'll figure a way to get that done.

Also, if I ever find another witness in .45 ACP I will buy it. The CZs and most of their clones are great guns.

This will up set you. I just sold a 45 ACP Wonder finish with only couple of boxes fired through it for $135 just to get it gone so I could order a 38Super conversion.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

RATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Such is Life. Another deal like that may come along before I die.

Here's your cure. Find a competent gunsmith that will literally pare, or file, back the overall projection of your ejector. This is a rather inexpensive and quick solution to your problem.

Scott

Navy I never shot 10mm so I looked up some of loading info and that's some good round.Now I see why you guy's like it so much But what about the accuracy I am a bullseye shooter and I don't shoot hot stuff It's to hard on me and the gun And never get's me the accuracy I want As for me A good trigger sights and the right load as for springs there is no magic formula Finding what works for you and the gun is the fun part

The 10mm & 38 Super really shine for accuracy with realitive light loads because they still have enough speed to be rid of so much drop. Often I refer to 45ACP to like lobbing a big rock. I can bench rest and keep them in a 3" red circle with my old eyes, At 21 feet standing using two hand stance I can half the group size and have several connecting holes.

My problem with anymore is I can't focuse on sight and target beyond about 25' w/o using scope or red dot. I am even having some problems now days with scopes and cross hair and target focus at same time. It's hell getting old, but I guess it beats the other option.

My Tanfoglio has Bomar target sights and I have been thinking about doing a red dot or halo type of sight recently to help me hit the paper for a few more years.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Iris for Glasses, Merit Optical Attachment, 9778, Optics Navy This is what you need you will think your eyes were 20 years old again I been using one for 3 years I use a cheap pair of reading glass's from wal mart 125+ 150+and I can shoot 2" groups off hand at 15yds And I am 70 on good days that is no BS.They have a site on the net look them up

Hummm, looks like I will have to give these a try.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I have found an easier answer to the problem of very fuzzy sights. I've been wearing glasses for 45 years, and have many older pairs of glasses floating around the house. I found a pair of old safety glasses that are atleast 35 years old and single vision. When wearing them I can see the serrations on the front sight of my Kimbers and S&W revolvers in perfect focus. The target will be blurry as it should be but the front sight is in perfect focus. Since that is what we are looking for it solved my problem for a period of time anyway. Hopefully, I will have enough older glasses that can be used to keep the front sight in focus for years to come. As long as I can hold the pistol all will be good. Try it it may help solve your sighting issue at no cost.

Have a Happy New Year.

Navy Get some thing like a playingcard put a hole in it like a big pin try differnt size hole'a put the card to your eye and look down at a set of sights just like you were shooting tell me what you can see now every thing should be sharp try it it work's for me Happy new year

Well,
I took the EAA Witness-P 10 m.m. to the range again today and I was even more impressed
with it than I was the first time.
Again I put five different types of ammo thru it with ZERO problems.
I even put my nuclear reloads thru it. Again I was very impressed with the accuracy.
The only change from the range session last week is that this time I put a Wolff spring kit into it.
I used the 20# recoil spring and a heavy duty firing pin spring.
It does get your attention compared to my heavier Stainless Steel framed Smith and Wesson's.
But the heavier recoil spring slowed down the slide alot and the recoil is much less.
It doesn't pitch the brass as far as it did with the stock recoil spring.
I'm really liking this gun.
Next time I'll try the 22# recoil spring and if it cycles all my loads, I'll be lovin' it.
Regards,
BM1

Gunfan is right about the Witness fix , and he's also bright enough not to let me get within 10 feet of it cause he might not get it back . Like I said earlier theres nothing wrong withthem and I'd loveto add a metal frame one in 'wonder finish' to my 10MM collection .
(BTW Gunfan , does that dealer in Vancouver still have that 1076 ?? and what is the name of that store .. I forgot to ask you the name the last time I saw you )

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39-2,59,3913,M&P40
1006,1066

Sorry, Brother. I haven't seen that 1076 in quite some time. You can call RW Pawn @ 1-(360)-576-4476 and ask if they have one, or one like it.

Scott

I have been shooting the 10mm since 1991 and have determined it to be one of the most accurate rounds I have ever fired. (I own five handguns chambered for the cartridge!) The secret(s) to finding an accurate 10mm are:

a: Buying a handgun of reasonable quality. This shouldn't be difficult, because most auto pictols and revolvers chambered for the 10mm are of excellent repute.

b: Deciding the purpose for the pistol/revolver. This is particularly important for the autopistol because, you must balance the recoil, hammer and firing pin springs along with a flat-bottomed firing pin retainer. This is how one configures the pistol to shoot "full power" 10mm, or "medium-sized game hunting" loads for the 1911-patterned autopistol. It is done to tame the "brisk" recoil of the cartridge in order to avoid "frame battering." If you do as I have instructed, the 10mm should have the same service life as that of an idetical pistol chambered for the .38 Super.

c: The Witness and Glock do NOT employ a "swinging link" system. The Glock needs but an increased power "captured" recoil spring in order to use the heavier loads. The Witness needs the heavier recoil coupled with an "extra-power" firing pin spring.


What is nice about the 10mm, is that you possess a service-size autopistol that has the versatility of a "magnum-powered" revolver cartridge. (Full-power loads effectively "split the difference" between the .357 S&W Magnum and .41 Remington Magnum revolver rounds.)

For the revolver, you simply need to determine what load best suits your purpose and shoots most accurately.

These handguns, while not posessing the .41 Remington Magnum's power level, are reasonably close, and can effectively compete with the "middle magnum" in the hunting field. As an antipersonnel round, the 155-165 grain "full-house" loads (Double Tap) are some of the most effecive loads that exist! Why do you think that I carried them on duty while I could? I wanted to survive an armed confrontation!

This is why I stand behind my philosophy that the 10mm is the most versatile autopistol cartridge extant. It excels in nearly every application for an autopistol. Personal defense, small and medium game hunting, the 10mm can "do it all" with consummate aplomb!

Scott

EAA Witness 10mm + $300 = pretty good deal in my book. Buy it!

What's strange about the 10mm Auto pistol it it's relatively light recoil when compared to the .41 and .44 Remington Magnum cartridges. I can rip off 6 "full house" 10mm loads from either my DW Razorback or from my S&W Model 610 managing to keep them all on target without much difficulty. When it comes to doing that will My model 657, it can be done. It is, however, a bit of a challenge.

I can hammer a "bad guy" with My Glock Model 20, Tanfoglio Witness, or Dan Wesson's Razorback #84 very quickly! While I can manage to shoot reasonably well with either my S&W Model 58, or 657, it takes a bit of time to recover between the shots. With "full-tilt" .41 Remington Magnum loads it's not a trifling task! In an emergency situation, I'd rather use one of my 10mm's... Thank you very much!

Scott

Well,
The 22# recoil spring did not cycle my target hand loads so I went back to the 20# spring.
Now,
Where can I get some extra power magazine springs, Wolff doesn't have any for the 10 m.m. mags.
I do see on the EAA website that the follower for the 10 m.m. and the .45 ACP are the same.
And since its a CZ clone, I'm going to see about getting some springs for a CZ 97B (.45 ACP).
Any info in this matter would help.
Regards,
BM1

I thought Wolff made some 10% "extra-power" springs for the Tanfoglio Witness line. changing out the stock for these can, on a regular basis, be the cure for many of the 10mm's "jamming woes."

Are you certain that Wolff Gunsprings doesn't make them?

I just finished visiting the Wolff Gunsprings website. The 10% and 15% "extra-power" springs that fit the CZ Series pistols will fit in the EAA-Tanfoglio line pistols. I got this straight from the "horses mouth"... NOT the other end!

Scott

I have those Wolff springs in my Witness 10mm and they work great, much better then original factory springs.

The factory recoil springs in the Witness 10's are light at 14#, but are great for tsrget loads and will even work with the Win 175 JHPST but will trow brass 30 feet, but if you are shooting real 10mm such as DT then you need to go up to an 18# min for those and may 22# if shooting hot hand loads.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Thanks Scott and all,
But,
I spoke with the Wolff spring guy (I didn't get his name) and he said he has nothing for the 10 m.m.
He will talk to EAA at the SHOT Show and he hopes to come up with something.
Please tell me what the spring part number is that you guys used.
Regards,
BM1