My dream snubnose concealed carry S&W would be a 2 5/8" S&W Performance Center designed from the ground up for the new DoubleTap 450 SMC load (and capable of handiling the .45 Super) cut for full Moon Clips, Chamfered Chambers that could also shoot .45 ACP. I would be in "hog" heaven. 450 SMC – Doubletap Ammunition

Combat Sights (Front and Rear) for use at night and low light conditions for both Police and Civilian Self Defense under adverse conditions! SIGN ME UP!!!

Smith & Wesson revolvers have been capable of safely chambering and firing the 45 SUPER for decades.

My 4" 625 loaded with 230 grain JHP 45 SUPER ammunition was my goto pin gun for more than a dozen years. That Winchester projectile chronographed out of my 4" revolver right at the 1100 FPS mark

The powerful 45 SUPER threw pins off that table with Great Authority and the V-comp put those expanding gasses to good use keeping my muzzle rise down for rapid shots on the next pins down the table

I think my Behlert Model 25 snubby would probably fill your wish even though the barrel is only 2 3/8" long

If the Model 25 would fill your needs, Lew Horton did a run of 3" Model 25s back around 2006 or 2007 on the square butt, 4 screw Heritage series frames. They were available in blue or nickel. The Factory nickel of that era was about the best I have ever seen

This is for folks that might be reading this thread as I am sure that YkcorCal knows the 450 SMC is a copy of the 45 SUPER cartridge. It allows ammunition manufacturers the ability to not pay the royalties for using the name 45 SUPER. The difference between the two cartridges is just the primer size.

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"Acta non verba"

I absolutely LOVE my Custom Apex Tactical S&W 625 JM 4" as It is my pride and JOY! I would not sell it at any price! I have heard from many others that the S&W 625 will handle the .45 Super.

Actually, colt saa, I was not aware of that; so thanks for the Information.

No, I'm just looking for a snubby concealed carry "Performace Center" quality gun to go with my S&W 625 and Springfield Armory XD .45 auto to make it a fearsome threesome because I live in a realatively high crime rate area in northern Los Angeles county and it is rapidly geting worse. I'm 72, my wife is 77 and I can still handle my handguns. I have an Ithaca DeerSlayer III dedicated slug gun I plan to trade toward another handgun as a New York reload can be faster than trying to reload your gun. My wife can no longer help as she has such severe gout in her hands she can not use anything but a .22LR and could not reload that; she is very fearful. I am really the sole protector and here in California we do not have the California Constitutional right to self defense and the criminals know it!!!


Here is info on my gun from when I bought it:

Smith & Wesson 625-8 Apex Custom 45 ACP/4"

Custom worked 625-8: Full trigger and action job consisting of the Apex Evolution IV parts kit and a level IV ICORE action work, chamfered cylinder, Hi-Vis replacement front sight and fully adjustable rear sight, bead blasted stainless finish, mooning and de-mooning tools, competition moon clip holder, Houge grips, Pachmayr grips, and smooth walnut JM grips, two polymer holsters, a USPSA moon clip rig.

Oh, and why don't I just move out of California? Well, my wife and I have gone through our life's saving's on doctors and now live in a 500 sq. ft senior's apt. in a senior's apt. complex living on Social Security as that is all we have left. We don't have the money to move down the street unless it is to live in our car. So we are for now better off than many out here. The crime is getting worse and worse and if the rents keep going up we don't know what we will do. Hopefully, the youngest son of my wife will take us in.

I have been selling all my other guns to get down to just the bare necessities, i.e. something that shoots .45 ACP.

According to this Shooting Times article the 450 SMC has a higher max pressure (32K psi) than the 45 Super (~28K psi) also.

It would be nice if they SAAMI standardize the cartridge but I doubt that will happen.

The .450 SMC: A Potent & Practical Defensive Cartridge | An Official Journal Of The NRA

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What our 45ACP revolvers need is just a little more powder capacity.

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45WSM




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Waiting for the break of day

What my idea is a revolver in stainless steel with a profile similar to a S&W 329 Night Guard only with adjustable combat night sights in .450 WSM/.45ACP. Performance Center with a non-fluted cylinder and I personally would prefer hammerless double action only; as I want nothing to snag and all edges rounded. Pachmayr 02480 S&W N Frame, Round Butt grips should round out the perfect package. Sign Me Up!!!

I believe it would make a great concealed carry "thumper" for those dark nights when evil doer's are about.



MODEL 329 NIGHT GUARD

Thanks for all the information on the 450 SMC!

One could use this round both for self defense with HPs and bear defense including Grizzly and Brown Bears with the hardcast loads. Very interesting.

Well a 325NG gets you part of the way there.

On my 325NG I removed the dead front night sight & installed a traditional red ramp & on the back I removed the C&S fixed sight & replaced it with a S&W adjustable rear sight with a .146" white outline blade.

Recently I've been chrono testing an assortment of 45 Super loads using 185gr, 200gr & 230gr JHPs with a different combination of Power Pistol, Long Shot, & AA#7 from my S&W 4586 (4.25" bbl - 3.29" actual).

As I suspected the 185gr has yielded the most muzzle energy (1312mv / 707me) using Long Shot, so far.

The 325NG can't match that with it's shorter barrel & cylinder gap but it's still fun.

LOL, you made me think about (temporarily) removing the 45WSM cylinder from my 325TR & trying it in the 325NG, just for giggles.

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45 Super out of the 325NG a few years ago
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Honorable mention
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Waiting for the break of day

Here is my .450 SMC.

I wanted something that looked like a WWll issue 1911A1 but did not want to come with the price of the original or the need for it to be preserved. I wanted something that I could shoot the heck out of and maybe even beat a little.

I bought a TISAS gov't model when they first started coming in (forged frame). I tossed out all of the MIM internals and with the help of Ebay filled it full of WWll Remington Rand stuff, and a few other things that I liked the looks of that did not destroy the look that I was going for. I sent it to Ford's for a reproduction WWll parkerization. I then converted it to .450 SMC.

It shoots great. It is absolutely reliable. On the occasions that I carry a gun, it is what I carry. I have a little over six hundred bucks tied up in the whole project. Works for me.

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	Tisas 2.jpg (122.7 KB, 24 views)

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Sorry to hear that. People who work their whole lives deserve a lot better treatment than that.

Medical bills are the number 1 cause of bankruptcy in the US, mostLy because both the medical, drug and insurance industries are big businesses run to maximize profit for investors with no concern for public health and welfare. Those of us over 50 can remember when it wasn’t always that way.

Rent increases have become absolutely abusive over the last decade or so, due in large part to investment companies buying up rental properties in order to up the rent just to maximize return on investment. When a few companies buy up enough properties in an area they can start price fixing.

We used to do a lot more enforcement of anti trust laws, and we need to get back to doing that.

I have a performance center 625 as well as a number of 1911s in .45 ACP.

I’ve never encountered an actual need for more performance, unless it had 4 legs.





In the winter months when I’m back in a vest I’ll carry it occasionally in a shoulder holster.

I used to shoot .45 Win mag in Hunter silhouette matches. It basically had .44 Mag ballistics in a rimless case suitable for semi auto pistols.

To bad it never caught on.

I carry Federal 230 grain HST +Ps in my 4" S&W 625.

What I would like is a 2.5 to 2.75 inch .450 WSM/.45ACP stainless steel revolver designed as a concealed carry/close combat Performnce Center revolver for use under the most adverse conditions a person could face. At times it would be carried as a second gun at the same time as my 625 4". At others it would be the primary as well as my nightstand gun.

If you are happy with what you have; more power to you. I can see the use of the right loading out of a .450 SMC being an "advantage" aganst the criminal element but not just any loading. No handgun no matter what caliber or power is perfect but we always seek to give the "Good Guys" especially those willing to train to use its' power for the protection of the weak the edge in a fight where the criminal seeks to attack from the dark and surprise.

"Hunt the wolf, protect the flock!"


These will be the loads I will be testing out myself.

450 SMC 200GR Bonded JHP - Velocity: 1250fps / 5.0" 1911

450 SMC 230GR Bonded JHP - Velocity: 1130fps / 5.0" 1911

I would love to see these loads tested out of a 2.5 to 2.75" revolver. As well as full FBI Gel Tested.

I understand what you want.

Gel test results are important to establish a measurable and objective standard to determine if a load and handgun combination actually demonstrates performance in 10% ballistic gelatin that correlates well with other loads that demonstrated satisfactory performance on average in actual real world shoots.

Where people start making inaccurate inferences is that some rounds are better than others, which isn’t really the case when all of the rounds meet the FBIs gel test requirements. Once that threshold is met, they all perform about the same in the field, with the spread between them being less than 10% from .380 ACP to .44 Magnum, and with statistically no difference between the .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum.

Once again for the folks that might have missed it. Once you get to the .357 Mag/.357 Sig level of performance in actual self defense shoots, the level of effectiveness is not significantly better for the .45 ACP, .41 Magnum, or .44 Magnum.

When looking at various data sets you might note that the .357 Mag, .41 Mag and .44 magnum have slightly fewer average hits to incapacitation but that doesn’t reflect greater effectiveness as much as it does slower rate of fire. The differences are on of the order of 1.7 for the magnum revolvers versus 2.1 for .45 ACP pistol.

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Which is why I am equally happy carrying a .45 ACP (in revolver or semi auto form) or a .357 Mag revolver and don’t see any need for more power (coming from a guy who also used to have a .45 Win Mag.)

I also don’t feel under gunned with a 9mm pistol given than I can shoot three rounds and get 3 A zone hits with a 9mm in the time it takes me to shoot two rounds and get 2 A zone hits with a .45 ACP pistol, given the quicker recoil recovery of the 9mm in otherwise identical 1911 pistols.

In short, bigger isn’t really better as:

- there isn’t any significant increase in effectiveness with even the biggest handgun rounds;
- there isn’t nearly as much spread between the .380 ACP and the .44 Magnum as you’d think; and
- all handguns rounds come up well short of rifle and shotgun rounds when it comes to immediate or rapid incapacitation.

I agree bigger is not always better depending on the situation, intervening cover, body armor. mental as well as chemical state of the perp you are dealing with. I have seen a teenager so high on Angel Dust only a shot to the central nervous system could have stopped him. Thank God, his girlfriend was lucid enough to calm him down and how she could even get through to him was a sight to see in itself. It is amazing what the human body can absorb under some conditions and at others shock can kill with a mere flesh wound.

That is why I like the idea of a .450 SMC/.45 ACP 2.5 to 2.75 Performance Center "combat revolver" as it would be an easy to carry revolver for self-protection against both two legged and four legged predators while maintaining its use of the .45 ACP for ammo continuity with my other handguns.

"Feeling a need" was the criteria for developing and carrying bigger cartridges that started the development of the .357 Magnum because many police and civilians were not satisfied with the .38 Special. It is sort of in the nature of American's to find a better gadget, better bullet, better caliber, in a never ending quest for perfection which of course can never be achieved.

Look to science fiction were they have ray guns that can be set from stun to vaporize of other humans. Even looking to the future man cannot bring himself to only stun but also must retain the right to kill.

The sights I love are from D&L Sports Inc.Smith and Wesson K, L, and N Frame Sights

If you moved to one of several states you could cut your expenses by almost half.

Right now I could not afford to move down the street unless it was to live in my car. We live Social Security Check to Social Security Check.

Even a round butt 2.75" S&W 625 with an unfluted cylinder would be MUCH APPRECIATED!

Perhaps looking like below, he, he:

Smith & Wesson 625 Performance Center


OR

S&W Model 625-6 3" .45 ACP but add an unfluted cylinder

Here is my cup of tea, a S&W Model 22-4, capable of easily handling the 45 Super,



Another one,



A S&W Model 625 Mountain Gun,



I have several others, 4” tapered barrels, 45 ACP but capable of 45 Super.

Not sure what the 450 SMC would do better?

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

All very nice revolvers!

I would be happy with a 2.75" S&W625 round butt with a non-fluted cylinder, as what I want is a concealed carry .45 ACP short barrel cut for full moon clips made to handle the hottest .45 ACP loadings for self-defense carry. It would compliment my S&W625 JM custom Apex Tactical with ammo compatibility.

Hopefully, soon the Socialist Republic of California will have to relent on their attacks on its citizens Second Amendment Rights and their right to keep and bear arms in defense of their persons.

Why the un-fluted cylinder? When I look for a carry piece, I want the lightest revolver I can get for the frame.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I want an unfluted cylinder made for maximum strength for use with loads such as .45 Super & .450 SMC. Most of the time loads such as Federal 230 grain HST +P are more than enough. There are times more power could be needed in some scenarios and with moon clips a fast ammo change could have such power on tap. Say against a dangerous large animal.

I thought of an advertising name for the new gun. The "GRIZZLY" as "No one messes with the business end of a Grizzly". Have Bart The Bear roaring face on and then fade to a closeup of the new short barrel .45 ACP/.450 SMC revolver loaded with the largest hollow points. Announcer says would you mess with a "Grizzly"; "for personal protection against the wolves in this world."

Your engineers would have to consider if 2.75"or 3" would be better and marketing, which would market better. I believe detectives, and civilians from states limiting magazine capacity , as well as people such as myself would be very interested in such a firearm!



Like the below but more down the bore and where all the cylinders can be seen:







The .450 SMC: A Potent & Practical Defensive Cartridge
by RICHARD MANN

For everything there is a downside and a compromise.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/the-450-smc-a-potent-practical-defensive-cartridge/



Who else would like a "GRIZZLY"?
"Protecting the innocent against the wolves of this world, S&W!"
Remember it still retains its ability to fire the .45 ACP

S&W making a STAND for the PEOPLE!

Sign me up for one of the first ones made!

The fluted cylinder is just as strong, perhaps a bit more so than the unfluted style. But, perception is what sells items, not facts.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Well, I for one am looking for maximum strength so those wishing so shoot .45 Super and the .450 SMC as a steady diet through their revolver can do so safely. I am not up on the exact tolerances on all .45 ACP cylinders and freely admit that. Neither would I want to batter a gun with heavy loads which I doubt I would personally, seeing I am content with the better +P HP loads currently offered however that is not to say I might change depending on a loadings street performance. Seeing I have nearly 50 years experience shooting a .45 ACP and I'm 6'5' and 290lbs I find even the heaviest loads in a .45 ACP relatively pleasant to shoot.

I also have a lot of time shooting the .44 Magnum.

I leave the engineering up to engineers. I freely admit I am just a trigger puller from a time long past.

Rocky

I love the below revolver! I only wish it was in a Performance Center Model in current production!!!

S&W Model 625-6 3" .45 ACP

A 230-grain load fired from the .450 SMC cartridge out of a 5-inch 1911 will generate about 78 percent more recoil than a 230-grain load fired from a .45 ACP.

If anyone would at least like to see the return of a short barrel .45 ACP revolver designed for concealed carry to current production I sure would appreciate hearing from you here on this thread! Thanks

Rocky

An unfluted cylinder is not one bit stronger than a fluted one. Look at where the steel is. You can not make a N frame sized cylinder take any more pressure than ir does now. They are already using one of the best possible steels heat treated to its ultimate yield strength. The thickness of the cylinder wall is the limiting factor at this point. To get more you would need a bigger cylinder and a bigger frame. There is only one thing that would help and that is making it a 5 shooter in order to move the stop notch from being right on the chamber.

But, this gun right here will get you are far as you can go. Cylinder is a new style 44 mag reamed to 45 colt, then cut for moon clips, It will fire acps, supers, 45 colts or reduced load 45 win mags,


But I carry one of the 2 5/8" barreled 325s with a titanium cylinder loaded with 200gr Gold dots. I do not believe I need any more power. the only real advantage of a steel gun is less felt recoil and probably some longevity. But, most people will not wear out a alloy big bore as they do have some seriously snappy recoil

Steelslaver, thanks for the information!

What I really want to see is a Model 625 2 3/4" round butt stainless steel .45 ACP Performance Center revolver in modern production even if only in a limited run so hopefully I can get my hands on one. I load my S&W 625 JM 4" Apex Tactical Custom with Federal 230 grain HST +Ps as my bedside gun and would do likewise with a 2 3/4" most likely. As soon as we get California sorted out so that we can legally carry concealed I plan to apply to get a permit as I have held outside California.

I live in Northern Los Angeles County (Canyon Country) to be near my wife's youngest three granddaughters (happy wife happy life). The crime is really getting outrageous!!! My wife and I have witnessed assault and battery of a large man on a female neighbor at her doorway yet the LA Sheriff's Deputies refused to arrest the attacker despite the assaulted person wanting to press charges as well as my wife and I offering to be witnesses against the attacker. We moved out of that apartment complex into a seniors complex but are still surrounded by troubled people for miles.




Hotel California: You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave!

BTW even if S&W were to make an 5 shot N frame cylinder the only real advantage would be getting the stop notch away from chamber . You could not move chambers closer to center to increase outside chamber wall thickness. This is because the rims of larger cartridges or clips already touch the very edges of ratchet teeth.

I lived in Casper, Wyoming for ten years and miss those mountains. There, I carried a Ruger Redhawk 5.5" .44 Magnum as I liked the balance of the barrel better and it would handle the Randy Garrett 330 grain +P Hammerheads when I was in grizzly country. Garrett Cartridges Inc.

I'm just looking for a round butt standard six shot 2 3/4" Performance Center Model 625 release from Smith & Wesson for us civilian concealed carry people. S&W makes a short barrel .357 Magnum and a .44 Magnum; the Model 627, .357 mag is cut for moon clips but not the Model 629 .44 mag.

I have thought seriously about buying a PERFORMANCE CENTER MODEL 629 .44 Mag. 2.625" barrel revolver and having the cylinder cut for full moon clips. It is just that I would love to have a concealed carry revolver using the same ammo as my other revolver.

The 310-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead is the most powerful Randy Garrett load that S&W revolvers can handle. Garrett Cartridges Inc.

I am sure there are gunsmith around who could convert that “…PERFORMANCE CENTER MODEL 629 .44 Mag. 2.625" barrel …” to 45 ACP for you. Andy Horvath comes to mind.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Thanks! However, I do not have the finances. It would take all I have just to purchase the PERFORMANCE CENTER MODEL 629 .44 Mag. 2.625" barrel.

As mentioned the weakest point on these six-shot 45s is the metal thickness at the cylinder's stop notch.

My S&W 45 revolvers range from .026" to .030" thick metal at the stop notches.

My N-frame 44s range from .039" to .041" thick at the stop notches.

That's 27% less metal thickness for the 45s at the stop notch.

The flutes, or lack of them, do nothing to change this fact.

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Waiting for the break of day

Here is some food for thought. Ruger only loads because of Ruger's superior strength.

Ruger Super Blackhawk cylinders are 1.710 in diameter

S&W N frame cylinders are also 1.710!!!

Ruger's advantage isn't their massive frame. Cylinders blow up then take out the frame. You don't see a broken frame and a unharmed cylinder without some another factor entering in. Ruger's mechanism is such that their bolt stop comes out of the frame off center and allows their stop notch be off to the side of the chambers enough to have full thickness throughout the chamber.

Notice the X frames which fire high pressure rounds have odd numbers of chambers. Even the new 350 Legend is a 7 shooter. It places the stop notch away from chambers

A 5 shot N frame 45 cylinder would be interesting to play with. But I still believe that a 255 gr slug leaving the barrel at 1100fps (I load my 45 colts to 45acp +P pressures) is going to kill anything just as dead as a 44 mag. 200fps will not make that much difference with heavy bullets and past 100yds 41, 44 mags or 45 colt you just have slightly different arches in the rainbow trajectory and it you don't know your rounds rainbow you are gonna miss. A 45 ACP reamed to accept 45 win mag brass using thee same 255 gr slugs could get that 1100fps without blowing up the gun. The depth of the cylinder does not make it any weaker. 25,000psi in a super is has no more wall thickness than a long colt chamber. A longer chamber allows more slower burning powders like 2400, 4227 and H110

If you have both S&W and Ruger revolvers have you ever measured the length of the cylinder?

I have read that Ruger cylinders are longer with more freebore. And that sometimes the Ruger only loads are too long to fit in a S&W chamber. If the cylinder is longer the extra free bore reduces pressure too.

I would never shoot a Ruger only load in my S&W 44 Magnum. I do believe Rugers are stronger. But there is probably more to it than just the raw strength of the revolvers.

Ruger's Super Blackhawk long cylinders are 1.703 and S&W are 1.705 (non recessed). I have never measured a Redhawk. But, did some research and read it is .05 longer which is not much. But, it is also .05 larger in diameter, Having the same chamber pattern would give it .025 more cylinder wall, but no more steel between 2 of the cambers. I still content the main reason for their superior strength is the offset stop notch.

A longer cylinder will allow you to to put the bullet father out in the case and give you a bit more case volume. But, a round with say 22 grs of 2400 and a 255 gr bullet with a 1.6 over all length isn't going to give much difference in pressure or velocity in a cylinder if you had one .05 longer than another. Besides reducing pressure will not increase velocity.
In rifles with more free bore than you could get out of a cylinder and with no barrel to cylinder gap you might get 50fps which isn't going to change the ballistics that much.

But like I said 200fps of increase velocity from a 255 gr bullet won't kill anything much more dead on a decent shot. On a poor shot it will not be that much more wounded either.

A (5) shot N-frame 45 would be cool in the same way the M69 (5) shot L-frame 44 is.

Don't think we'll be seeing one anytime soon though from the factory.

I easily chrono'd over 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP in my 45WSM. Averaged 1265mv with a full load of Blue Dot in my max load.

I worked up some loads using 250gr & 270gr bullets in it but got sidetracked with some other new toys & forgot to go back & chrono them, but 1100mv at 45 Super pressures is doable.

Very slow powders really need a roll crimp which means the COAL" is controlled by the location of the crimping groove.

If you're using a taper crimped jacketed bullet without a cannelure you can tweak the COAL" a bit but they work best with moderate speed powders.

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45WSM
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Waiting for the break of day

I bought 200 pieces of Starline 45 win mag brass to play with. But, I have not done much with them. Made up a few rounds using charges backed off from my 45 colt loads,

While I would not fire "Ruger only" loads in a S&W 45 colt I firmly believe that they will handle 45 ACP+P pressures forever. That your having no problems running supers at 28,000psi is not really surprising to me, but having 2 of the snub 325s I would bet the recoil is really snappy in one of those.

But, in an actual self defense situation, if the 200grr Gold Dots I carry in mine don't do the job it will be more my fault than needing more power.

[IMG][/IMG]

Essentially, what you get with the .450 SMC are 10 mm velocities with a .45-caliber. Of course, since no one is manufacturing .450 SMC semiautos, what you’re probably wondering is what you have to do to shoot .450 SMC in your .45 ACP. Well, a .450 SMC cartridge can be fired in any .45 ACP handgun. However—and this is a big however—it should only be fired in full-size .45 ACP handguns that have a +P rating. (A 20- to 22-pound recoil spring in your favorite 5-inch 1911, or a 21- to 23-pound spring in a Glock.) Or you can shoot it in a .45 ACP revolver rated for +P .45ACP rated ammo. A 230-grain load fired from the .450 SMC cartridge out of a 5-inch 1911 will generate about 78 percent more recoil than a 230-grain load fired from a .45 ACP.

That is why I want a from the ground up short barrel .450 SMC/45ACP designed to handle said round accurately in combat conditions to defend both civilians and law enforcement as a concealed carry revolver. With what ever design and engineering features to make it the ultimate defensive revolver including sights, grip angel, grips, barrel, and balance.