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Standard Catalogue of S&W- 5th Ed Discussion of the Upcoming 5th Edition


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Old 01-07-2024, 06:08 PM
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Thanks to all of you who have submitted corrections and updates for the 5th edition on the Forum (and at the SWCA Symposium and via email) and to Lee for opening this new forum!

YOUR INPUT IS INVITED - Please post here any of the following:

* Corrections to the 4th Edition - please include page number.
* New information - let us know where it should be added.
* Value estimates - indicate specific model, variation, and condition. Again, page number helps.
* Other material you think would be of interest.

I'll also post questions here for your responses in the thread.

Photos - If you have a hi-res photo that that you think would add to the book, it would probably be best to email it to me directly - [email protected]. Because of all the new models we'll have to include, page count is a concern and we'll be limited on the number of photos we can add. It should show something that is not already illustrated in the book. Please let us know where you think it should be added. Did i mention that 4th Ed. page number helps?

Acknowledgement - We try to acknowledge those who make significant contributions to the book. For those who contribute here, we'll probably list you by your forum name (as we did in the 4th Ed.) Please note prominently if you prefer NOT to be acknowledged. I'll undoubtably miss some - my apologies in advance!

WHERE WE'RE AT NOW:

The 5th Edition is TENTATIVELY scheduled for release in late 2024. That means we have to have our draft to Gun Digest this summer for their edit, layout, and printing.

Rick and I have been actively working on the 5th edition of Standard Catalog of S&W for several months now. (Well, Rick more than me -- he's doing his edits first, including the MASSIVE task of adding new models and variations, and then he'll pass it to me).

We've collected the info that was posted here in the "Standard Catalogue of S&W - 4th Ed" forum. Thanks to all who contributed there!

In addition to the great info provided here on the Forum, I have a 125 page Word doc of accumulated material submitted by fellow S&W enthusiasts, plus 100 other emails, photos and documents from contributors over the past 8 years. And once those are incorporated, then we start value research...

Special thanks to Jim King and the late Stu Scheu who undertook full proofreads and edits of the 4th Ed, Rex Halfpenny for value research on S&W's for the past couple annual editions of Standard Catalog of Firearms, and Jim Brewster for extensive real world value reports of actual sales of collectible S&W's.
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Old 01-09-2024, 11:31 PM
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Please include the data Hondo44 has collected up in the .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
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Old 01-10-2024, 06:57 PM
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Thanks. Could you please post a link to the thread?
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Old 01-10-2024, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSupica View Post
Thanks. Could you please post a link to the thread?
I think this may be the one:

.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

...Ben
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Old 01-10-2024, 10:25 PM
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I'm not sure if this is a correction or just an omission. Regarding model 29 Engineering and Production changes, on page 232, the last bullet point on the page describes the model 29-4. At the top of page 233 it appears that the description of the 29-4 continues but the next heading is for the 29-6. Did the 29-5 get omitted or is the description at the top of page 233 for the 29-5 and the heading was omitted? The description at the top of page 233 includes: "1990 Longer stop notch in cylinder..." "1991 Introduction of the Magna Classic". "Introduction of the .44 Classic". "1992 Introduction of the .44 Magnum Classic Deluxe."
I thought those features were associated with the 29-5.
Hope this is useful information. Looking forward to the 5th edition!
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Old 01-15-2024, 08:47 PM
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The article about Roy Jinks in the Dec 2023 Dillon "Blue Press" product catalog would be a nice addition to the SCSW 5th edition if permission could be acquired to include it.
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Old 01-28-2024, 06:09 AM
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Any chance of having a small section of Auto Ejectors of Law Enforcement models produced by the Factory only? Thank you.
Factory released
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Old 01-28-2024, 07:36 PM
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Dumb idea maybe??? but a graph or chart showing some of the more popular guns...ie model 29,27.19....ect on what the price was say in 1960 compared to what trends (prices) are today.
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Old 02-11-2024, 06:21 PM
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All model 38 Single Action 3rd models, all 38 Single Action Mexican models, and all First Model (Single Shot Model of 1891) are antiques per the attached letter from Mr Roy Jinks to the ATF in 1972. All frames were made before 1899 per this letter.

On page 94 in the 38 SA 3rd model section and the and 38 SA Mexican model states they were manufactured 1891 to 1911. Should a note be added like the one on page 116 for the New Model 3 that reads:

NOTE: Although the New Model Number 3 was cataloged into the early 1900's, it has be reported that all frames were manufactured by 1898, making the gun an an antique.

On page 124 under the First Model (Single Shot Model of 1891) it says Manufactured C. 1893-1905. This could also have the same note above that is changed for the First Model Single Shot

Same with the 32 Hand Ejector 1st Model Double-Action Revolver (Model 1 or Model 1896) on pages 140 and 141
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Old 02-21-2024, 06:41 PM
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Jim, I sent you an e-mail.
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Old 02-26-2024, 03:31 PM
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Correction to page 185, SCSW4: It states under “Variations” , the Prototypes subsection: “Twelve prototype .44 HE Triple Lock revolvers were produced with serial numbers 089-099. They were shipped to prominent shooters and members of the Wesson family in November 1906. All were nickel with 7 1/2” barrels and Target sights.”

All were NOT nickel. Don Mundell, clubgunfan, has serial number 088 and it contains its original finish and is blued.

Last edited by mrcvs; 02-26-2024 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 03-02-2024, 08:29 PM
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I may be late to the game but I would like to see more pictures. Of course you cannot publish all the pictures of every single gun variation but actual pictures of each model number of the ones you do not have in the catalog. You probably have a picture of every model number S&W produced on this forum. I would bet most members here would have no problem with a picture of their gun used in the catalog. Just a thought.
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Old 03-02-2024, 11:10 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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DON"T try to put it all in one book...........#1 and #2 are good. #3 & #4 pull a vacuum be cuz you left out a lot of info on guns in 1 & 2........Iffen ya gonna do a 5 take it from the present and run with it......Don't short change us like you do on 3 & 4.
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Old 03-19-2024, 01:02 PM
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Default 2 1/2" top breaks

Special order top break 2 1/2" barrels exist per the attached letters.

Page 99 under .38 Safety Hammerless 4th model. Under the variations section it reads "Special order barrel lengths - 1-1/2-inch and 2-inch barreled special order guns exist...." 2-1/2-inch can be added to the list.

Page 97 under variations a note could be added that special order barrel length of 2-1/2 inch exist. A gun was special ordered by Mr. T.L. Felts. Mr. Felts was an owner in the Baldwin-Felts detective agency.

Listed in the same section "Historical note: s/n 42566 used by Floyd Allen in a daring getaway in a Hillsville Va Courthouse on March 14, 1912. ...." Mr T. L. Felts with his detectives captured Floyd Allen after his escape. Unfortunately Mr. Felts did not own the 2-1/2 inch gun when Allen was captured. He bought the gun a year later.

Also attached is a picture of Mr. T. L. Felts and Floyd Allen.
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Old 03-23-2024, 05:05 PM
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A small matter perhaps, but in the write-up on the single shots (page 126 in #4) it was suggested the grooves found on the sides of the frame of the 2nd (and then 3rd) models were there as a matter of aesthetics---and I subscribed to this explanation at the time as well.

Long story short, they (and what I refer to as the "fancy flat" grind on the bottom of the barrel lug on the 3rd Models) are there to achieve virtually identical balance of all three top-break single shots-----with the 10" barrels, at least. I suspect the results would be the same, but did not repeat the experiment with either the 6" or 8" barrels of the respective models.

If need be, I can provide the particulars of my experiment which demonstrated this.

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 03-23-2024 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 03-23-2024, 06:10 PM
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Under the Military & Police Model 1905 4th change, round butt stocks are described as scarce. This seems hardly the case, and other forum members seem to agree.

How “scarce” are .38 M & P Model of 1905 4th change revolvers with round butts?
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Old 03-27-2024, 10:15 PM
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I would be happy to update the sections of model 41, 41-1 and 46 if you would like. Just as I did the 4th ed.

I'm happy to also submit other articles also which are missing from the 4th or very briefly mentioned.
Like;
S&W (Wesson) double barrel shotguns. ~1860s.
DB Wesson single shot rifles. ~1849
Rollin' white cartridge pistols. ~ 1860s
Of which I have examples of all and could also provide photos.

There is probably others I need to check my notes. Like the 50 or so model 14s in .32 come to mind....again I have examples
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Old 04-10-2024, 08:15 PM
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Jim, I admit that I haven't read the entirety of this thread, but I noticed a glitch while cruising through the 4th edition and I'll apologize now if this has been brought to your attention. On page 93, lower, left column, 4th line from the bottom under the heading of .38 Single Action 2nd Model: "... a strain screw for the leaf type spring is now found on the frames inside strap to tension the hammer spring." Should I be looking for another 'Rare, Scarce or Uncommon' revolver? Mike
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Old 04-15-2024, 09:16 AM
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OK here's a stupid idea...special edition loose leaf binder updateable with new data and edits? Print 1 through 5 out as loose leaf and publish as SWSC Compendium?

Sorry Jim, I know it would be a LOT of work that way.
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Old 04-18-2024, 01:52 PM
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Default Minor correction

Regarding the 5946 NYPD pistols discussed on p386/387 of 4th Edition, I have reason to believe the referenced Product Code 198569 is in error - I believe it should be 108569 - the "9" really being "0"
Also there seem to be a significant quantity of 5946 produced in Houlton, ME as well as Springfield, MA with Product Code 149332 of the same configuration from about 2002-2016 - which are speculated to be NYPD but not so marked on Box End. At least one of which (UCU9711 Houlton, ME 3-22-2013 per SW) was confirmed by Roy to be "from a large NY Police Department"
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Old 04-18-2024, 03:29 PM
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Default 3914DAO

For consideration as an addition - 3914DAO for NYPD approved (listed) off duty weapon. Observed S/N prefixes incl MSF (earliest observed 6-1998 per SW), VJF, VJJ (2003), BAY, BDK, BEM, BJM (2008), UBZ (2009), UCF, UCS (Indented S/N right side, Houlton, ME), UCT (2012), UCV (back to Springfield, MA), UCU (2012-2013), UCW (2015), UCZ (Laser Etched S/N not indented, right side 2015-2017), VJF, VJJ (2003).
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Old 04-28-2024, 03:00 PM
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Hey Jim good to hear from you. I contributed to the 4th Ed and will start watching this thread but here are the values I can provide you.

These are all prices for guns I’ve bought, sold, or seen sold in local shops.

They will be listed this way:
FAIR/GOOD/LNIB

No safety
Model 10 HB - 450/600/800
Model 15 - 500/650/900
Model 13 - 500/750/900 (if it is a 3 inch version add $100)
Model 19 - 650/850/1100
Model 36 - 500/650/850 (3 inch pencil barrel add $50)
Model 49 - 450/550/700
Model 30 - 350/400/500
Model 29 - 900/1200/1500

Frame safety
586L COMP PC - 900/1100/1300
Model 58 - 800/1000/1200
Model 69 - 700/800/900
Model 357 Nightguard 1050/1500/2000
M&P 340 700/850/1000

Autoloaders
Model 6906 - 600/650/750
Model 4513TSW -650/750/800
Model 1006 - 1000/1100/1300
Model 1076 - 950/1200/1400 (if a lettered FBI gun 2500 +)
Model 645 - 750/900/1100
Model 4506 - 650/800/900
Shield EZ - 350/400/500 (all calibers)
Shield Plus -400/450/550 (also all calibers)
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Old 05-02-2024, 08:58 AM
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Jim,

On page 53 of SCSW4, you describe the following: Two-piece boxes. 1933-1941. Blue picture box. In early 1933, S&W introduced a blue box with a picture of the model printed on the lid and with model information printed on the sides of the lid. It is believed that these were initially issued for both the .38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models.

On page 181, you state, in reference to the .38/44 Heavy Duty model, that “Guns manufactured from 1930 to 1935 shipped in maroon boxes and from 1935 to 1940 in blue picture boxes. I don’t know if there was overlap until 1935 with the blue picture box and the maroon ones or if the maroon one was discontinued in 1933, but the reference to the blue picture boxes starting in 1935 is in error and should be revised to early 1933.

Lastly, I don’t know if a reference to the wording on the inside of the box being bilingual (English/Spanish) warrants a reference, as it’s certainly interesting, likely for sales to Mexico and/or South America, but I’m not sure how extensive these sakes were to begin with.

Also, there were two types of picture boxes for these models and the Registered Magnum. Type I, that pictured the service stocks on the box, and Type II, which pictured the Magna stocks on the box. There is no reference to this in SCSW4, and a reference to this in SCSW5 would be more thorough.

The end date of the blue picture box, on page 181 is stated as being 1940, and yet it states that 11,111 .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers were manufactured 1930 - 1941. And, on page 53, it states the blue picture boxes ended with S&W’s closure for wartime production in 1941, so I would think a revision is necessary on page 181 to reference 1941 instead of 1940 as the end date for blue picture boxes.

Thus, this line should read, on page 181, as follows: Guns manufactured from 1930 to 1935 shipped in maroon boxes and from early 1933 to 1941 in blue picture boxes. Unless the maroon box ended with the advent of the blue picture box, in which case that would have ended in early 1933. I’m not aware if there was overlap, or not.

Photographs of my .38/44 Heavy Duty that shipped in July 1934 are attached, it having Service stocks and being in the correct Type I box are attached. The serial number on the tape on the underside of the box is illegible, and so I don’t know if I have THE box or just A box.
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Old 05-16-2024, 01:06 AM
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Hello Jim,

Was trying to help clarify a few things on the forum, when I saw something caught my eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryofcc View Post
One thing we can be certain of, 4 screw 8 3/8" Pre M14 and pre 17 guns are very scarce. Not so with the M48. There seems to be lots of them for sale. Big Larry
Wish I could see a non-model marked Pre 14 or Pre 17 lettered with the 8 3/8" barrel. Anyone have a factory lettered one they wish to share? I'd love to see them. My Model 14 four screw with lettered 8 3/8" barrel shipped
May 1, 1959. The letter states walnut checkered grips, which is lettered that way on several of those I hold. It is my guess if the term magna or target is not present, they must be magna style. I'll have to dig it up and clean it for a picture or two one day.

The 3rd Edition does state, "checkered walnut Magna style grips".

Seems a lot was going on around 1957-1959. The 3rd Edition shows on the Model 14 a lot of changes.
1957: stamping of model number.
1959: 14-1 change extractor rod from right-hand to left-hand thread.
1959: Introduce 8 3/8" barrel.

I need to buy a 4th Edition while waiting on the fifth.

The Model 17 lists walnut magna grips.
1957: Stamping of the model number.
1958: Introduce 8 3/8" barrel.

Here it shows 1958 for the Model 17 8 3/8" barrel, while the 14 shows 1959. I wonder what the fourth edition shows? If you have any left you would sell me, let me know. Thanks, Bud
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Old 05-18-2024, 03:50 PM
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@JimSupica, I can provide you detail info and photos of the WVSP 4566TSW pistols. I sent you an email.
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