1.5" 10 round accuracy guarantee at 50 yards?

[Farmer17]

On another thread about Les Bayer pistols I learned they sell an upgraded gun guaranteed to shoot 1.5 inch 10 shot groups at 50 yards from a machine rest and I looked up prices and saw some for about $2,100 at Bud's Gunshop. That's pretty incredible accuracy for defensive handgun and I just wondered if there were any other 9m/m or .45 handguns that would come close to that for a bit less money?

 

[squidsix]

Sig P210 will do that SOMETIMES with SOME ammo. I imagine the 952 will do that also. CZ 1911s (Dan Wesson) come with a target showing a group normally at 25M, often 1.5”
Plenty of 1911s by the top makers will do it, but as far as I know only Les Baer will guarantee it.

 

[rockquarry]

I've never owned a Les Baer gun, but the company has made this guarantee (for extra dollars) for a long time now, maybe more than twenty years.

 

[cherrypointmarine]

A 945 will do that easy . Problem is finding one they will let go of . A shooter is even harder . Seems like BNIB is easier to find than a shooter .

 

[boatbum101]

Les Baer is a semi-custom production gun . Not the prettiest , but a solid choice . Beware that it's often not possible to get the same accuracy results as their factory claims . Many full custom builds will also guarantee the same level of accuracy , but not at the same costs . I've shot a bunch of 945's & never had a 10 round group @ 50yds close to 1.5" . A Briley bushing on a serious gun is not a good choice . A Range Queen paper puncher OK , but not a gun you'd use for SD . A good pistolsmith who can properly fit a 1911 barrel / bushing & fit a slide to frame can equal the 1.5" @ 50yds . It does take a pretty good amount of labor & specialized technique . Bullseye pistolsmiths build them every day .

 

[sotexas]

I unfortunately am not a machine just a guy that stands at a line and hits where I point. A relatively close line I might add

 

[6string]

Rock River offered a Bullseye Match 1911 in the 1990s that came with a 10 shot 1.5" 50 yds guarantee, using Federal Gold Match jacketed SWCs. Charles Petty put it to the test using a Ransom rest. He duplicated results that equalled or bettered the guarantee over and over.
John Giles used to test all his bullseye guns on his indoor 50 yd test tunnel. They were 5 shot groups, often as small as 1". This was with lead bullet handloads. He supplied the target and load info with each gun.

I used to shoot at a club that had a designated Ransom Rest steel I beam set in concrete. We'd bolt the rest to it and shoot at 50 yds.
One of the National Guard guys had a Cominolli Device. It is a single shot cannon breech that accepts a 1911 barrel. It was drilled to use the same mounting holes as the Ransom Rest. We would test a batch of Kart barrels, select the best and return the rejects for replacement. The best ones would shoot our handload using the Nosler 45 cal HP with a charge of VV 310 powder in Federal cases into 1" at 50 yds, 10 shots.
This was the barrel only. When fitted, you might get anywhere from 1.5-3" out of the gun in a Ransom Rest. However......often guys could shoot them better off the bench! The barrel to slide (hence the sights or slide mounted dot) was fine. But, the Ransom Rest adds the frame fitting into the equation. One more link in the chain, so to speak.

The original Neuhausen made SIG P210 is a different story! As a service sidearm it is unmatched for it's legendary accuracy.
As an example, units would receive a batch of 10 pistols. Each would be tested to meet the 50mm @ 50 meters standard for 10 shots.
But the real test was this: the armorer would disassemble each pistol, randomly mix the parts and fire an 8 shot group out of the machine rest. No sighting in. Each pistol was subsequently tested until a composite 80 shot group was fired. The expected result was an 80 shot 50 meter composite group not exceeding 80mm (if I recall, might have been 100mm).
That is what you call consistent hand fitted tolerances.

Jim

 

[hardluk1]

Some of these apex barreled updated M&P's should be able to do that from a ranson rest and bone stock sig X5 will . Army marksmanship team beretta M9 pistols will regularly shoot 10 rounds under 2" at 50 yards some well less that that . So if you want to dump good money on a LB upgraded model go right ahead .

 

[malph]

Some of these apex barreled updated M&P's should be able to do that from a ranson rest and bone stock sig X5 will . Army marksmanship team beretta M9 pistols will regularly shoot 10 rounds under 2" at 50 yards some well less that that . So if you want to dump good money on a LB upgraded model go right ahead .

The Beretta M9s used by the Army Marksmanship Unit are heavily worked over to get that kind of accuracy. David Sam's can build you an M9 with that kind of accuracy but it won't be cheap.

I'd like to think an M&P coukd shoot like that but I'm a little sceptical. Do you have some evidence you can point to that that is the case? I'm not being argumentative, I'm hope my scepticism is unfounded.

 

[WC145]

All Baers are guaranteed to shoot 3" or better at 50yds. You can pay extra for the 1.5" guarantee if you want it. I didn't when I bought my Boss or my Hemi, I haven't shot the Hemi yet but my Boss is very accurate and an easy gun to shoot well. I can't shoot 3" 50yd groups with any handgun but I like knowing the guns are capable.

 

[boatbum101]

For a few dollars more the Rock River will make you throw rocks @ a Les Baer . Much better fitted with consistent repeatable accuracy .

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Always look closely at those targets-check for stippling and powder burns

 

[inspcalahan]

That's a fantastic claim well within the capability of several manufacturers... Baer, Wilson, STI and more - that said, I can't remember any of my shootings or training sessions where I was using a ransom rest. Using good old human arms, hands and fingers, I'd bet you couldn't tell between a 1.5" gun and a 3" gun at 50yards.

If you have the money for the "upgrade", by all means.... very cool. From a daily carry, defensive standpoint, you'll never know.

 

[M29since14]

If you plan to buy a 1.5” gun, be aware that you will most likely need to take far more care with your ammunition than you may be used to. My typical practice rounds that I have used for years in every .45 I’ve ever owned were nothing but trouble in the 1.5” gun.

As to the 1.5” guarantee, we’ll, I see the test target. Yes, I’ve tried to duplicate it. All I can say is (1) I’ve never come close, and (2) my results with my older Illinois gun are almost exactly the same.

I won’t be buying any more Bears. I have all I need, but if I did for some reason, I can’t see that it would be a 1.5-incher. I wouldn’t use my 1.5” gun for SD/CCW unless it was all I had. My 3” Illinois gun, yes. All this JMHO, based on my guns and my ability.

 

[505Gibbs]

If you plan to buy a 1.5” gun, be aware that you will most likely need to take far more care with your ammunition than you may be used to. My typical practice rounds that I have used for years in every .45 I’ve ever owned were nothing but trouble in the 1.5” gun.

As to the 1.5” guarantee, we’ll, I see the test target. Yes, I’ve tried to duplicate it. All I can say is (1) I’ve never come close, and (2) my results with my older Illinois gun are almost exactly the same.

I won’t be buying any more Bears. I have all I need, but if I did for some reason, I can’t see that it would be a 1.5-incher. I wouldn’t use my 1.5” gun for SD/CCW unless it was all I had. My 3” Illinois gun, yes. All this JMHO, based on my guns and my ability.

This is a GREAT point! The Baers may do it with the ammo they've selected. Wilson gives you their ammo used on the test target provided with the gun.

 

[M29since14]

505Gibbs... IIRC Baer does, too. I think the target with my gun said Federal American Eagle 230 gr. ball, but I’d have to look to be sure. Whatever it was, I used the specified ammo and never came close. It might be that I received the info by calling Baer. I just can’t be positive without a little research.

 

[lrrifleman]

This is an interesting thread, but I think some priorities are misplaced. Many a GI has gone into harm's way with a milspec 1911 that kept all it's rounds on a number 2 washtub at 25 yards, and removed the threat.

Personally, the last characteristic that I would want in an SD/HD pistol is match accuracy. I would rather spend extra money on a reliability package to ensure 100% function!

 

[Wise_A]

This is an interesting thread, but I think some priorities are misplaced. Many a GI has gone into harm's way with a milspec 1911 that kept all it's rounds on a number 2 washtub at 25 yards, and removed the threat.

Personally, the last characteristic that I would want in an SD/HD pistol is match accuracy. I would rather spend extra money on a reliability package to ensure 100% function!

Literally what I was about to post. Give me a tank, a beast, an ugly brute, a true going-to-war gun. Something you could drop in sand, dirt, mud, then run it over with a truck. Then make it cheap-enough that I wouldn't mind doing that, and slash at the finish a few times with a rusty rat-tail file so I don't worry over it.

I always laugh when someone shows off their $3,000 "custom CCW" gun, and it doesn't have a mark, scratch, or holster-rub on it.

 

[Rock185]

I've owned some of the pistols squidsix mentions, and I suspect they would certainly be in that accuracy ball park. But they didn't guarantee it, I could never prove it. I don't have a machine rest, and shooting carefully as I can from the bench can only approach those 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards.

FWIW, I've owned a few Baers. The last, a Hardball National Match, has a 10-rd. test target of just under 2" at 50 yds. It does not have the 1 1/2" guarantee. It has functioned flawlessly with any hollow point or ball ammo I've used in it over the last 20 years or so. But I don't know if it would be as reliable in unfriendly environmental conditions as the well worn rattle trap of a 1911A1 I was issued in RVN years ago. But I'm still not going to drop in the the mud, run over it, or use a rusty rat tail-file on it

 

[hardluk1]

malph I could care less if you beleave or not . Open your eyes and see what your capable of from a bench with a good adjustable rest and some leather bags , Even try some upgrades if you have the ability . Maybe I still do after 64 years .