10mm Auto For Bear Defense

Keep in mind that a cop with a Model 10 .38 killed a polar bear at the Staten Island zoo in the '80's.

If Massad Ayoob sees this, he has details.

An Alaska guide who writes for, "Rifle" said that he and his daughter rely on Ruger .357's as backup handguns, and he has seen many bears. Obviously, he believes that placement is the key with any handgun bullet.

The Aug., 2009, "Sporting Classics" has an article in which a dentist killed a charging bear with a Ruger .44 Magnum using a 280 grain bullet. He aimed for center of mass. Hit the bear in the chest.

T-Star

I recall an incident a couple or three years ago where a bear, in Alaska, I think killed several people including someone who shot him several times with a 38. They found several 38 bullets and some of the man's clothes inside the bear.
 
Wild West Guns handle Colt and Sig handguns mostly so I don't think Kenny is pushing Glocks for bear defense. He is however, personally acquainted with one or more people who have used the 10mm for bear defense. If anything, Kenny will recommend one of their custom 454s over any lesser caliber.

I do not claim to be an expert but dealt with Alaskan bears for over 30 years. The city animal control department was under the police department and our officers often had to assist the animal control officer with bears.

Ignorant people leave garbage and dog food outside and train the bears to search for food in and around the residential areas of our town. Our educational pamphlet says "a fed bear is a dead bear". Once the bears make the people + house = food connection they become bolder and more aggressive. Transplanting the bears to a different area does not work as they return so they are killed. This unfortunate duty falls to the police department.

Our brown bears are much larger than the interior grizzly due to the summer salmon diet. Our black bears are pretty much normal sized and not as big as the coastal browns.

We killed several bears every summer. We used barrel traps and took them to the landfill and shot them inside the traps. Most of our officers carried 45 autos. I know for a fact that the Federal Hydra-Shok 230 grain hollow point will penetrate the top of even the largest bear's skull every time. 44 magnums and Brenneke slugs worked very well too. Would I venture into bad bear country armed with a 45 auto, HELL NO, but it can kill a bear.

I personally know two people who killed charging interior grizzly bears with handguns. The first was a woman who was was armed with a four inch Model 19 with Remington 158 grain soft points. She shot the bear in the head and chest as it was charging her. The bear veered off to the side of her and began thrashing and biting at the wounds. She reloaded twice, shooting the bear a total of 18 times.

The second involved an acquaintance who thought it would be thrilling to bow hunt a grizzly. He got the ultimate rush when he hit the bear with the arrow and it promptly charged. His best friend (or so he thought) was backing him up with a 12 gauge. When the bear charged the buddy ran. The bear was on Bruce in a few seconds and began biting and clawing him about the arm, head, and back. Bruce carried a Desert Eagle 44 and was able to get it out. When the bear pinned him on the ground he pressed the muzzle into the bears neck and emptied the gun. Miraculously, the gun did not malfunction. Bruce survived and the bear did not.

Google Alaska bear attacks and you will find a few each year where handguns killed aggressive bears.

My advice in a nutshell, no handgun is adequate against an angry bear. Carry the biggest caliber rifle or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs and be proficient with it. If you are visiting a national park you may be forced to carry a handgun. If your friend is good with a Glock 20 and you load it with the right ammo, it will beat the hell out of teeth and fingernails in a bear fight. The Glock has lots of shots, is lightweight, and nearly corrosion free. I once schooled a visiting cousin in the art of a Remington 12 gauge for her visit. When we caught up with her on the trail a few day later, she did not have the gun. She left it in the car as it was too heavy and she felt weird as most of the other hikers were unarmed. She would have been better off with the most powerful handgun she could shoot well.

My standard summer bear carry is a Marlin 45/70 loaded with 430 grain hard cast at 1900 fps. My handgun is a S&W 329 loaded with 300 grain hard cast. Both feel pretty puny when a big bear is acting like he would like to invade my space. I do not see the point of carrying a five or six pound handgun when I can carry a heavy caliber rifle for about the same weight. I thought the whole point of a handgun is to be easier to pack.

I saw buckshot advocated for bears. Pattern your shotgun and you will see that buckshot is a very short range proposition. You do not have the ability to dispatch a wounded bear that might move away from you. Heavy slugs are much better. I would not want to wait for a charging bear to get within ten or fifteen yards so I could use buckshot.

Now, let's discuss which is better, 9mm or 45 or maybe bias ply tires vs. radial ply tires.


This is the sort of answer for which I was hoping! Do you happen to know the phone number for Kenny's shop?

Thanks,

T-Star
 
I always hesitate to respond to the "Alaska-bear-handgun" threads, but I've gotta' say that I think akviper's advice is dead-on.

The Glock 20 has been a very popular model in Alaska since it was introduced. Several years ago (at least in the Fairbanks area) you could find plenty of slightly used Model 29/629s or Super Blackhawks; shops couldn't keep the Model 20s in stock. I carried a Model 629 5-inch Classic; next time I go back I'll have a Model 20. If I go crashing through the willows along a streambank during the salmon runs, or get between a sow and her cubs, or surprise a brownie dozing on his moose carcass, I'll pay the price for a lack of situational awareness and probably wish I had a Guide Gun or a pump loaded with Brennekes. At least the Glock will be better than lots of other handguns, and definitely better than nothing. And it's not so heavy or expensive that I won't carry it.

As an anecdote: Over the holidays I visited with a friend that owns the Trading Post in Wiseman, and he related that his friend that owns the service station in Coldfoot found several of his sled dogs killed amidst lots of bear sign. He investigated and was rushed by a grizzly, which he killed with.......a .38 Special. A very old boar, with few teeth and no fat. I think that's what they call a Significant Emotional Event.
 
I always hesitate to respond to the "Alaska-bear-handgun" threads, but I've gotta' say that I think akviper's advice is dead-on.

The Glock 20 has been a very popular model in Alaska since it was introduced. Several years ago (at least in the Fairbanks area) you could find plenty of slightly used Model 29/629s or Super Blackhawks; shops couldn't keep the Model 20s in stock. I carried a Model 629 5-inch Classic; next time I go back I'll have a Model 20. If I go crashing through the willows along a streambank during the salmon runs, or get between a sow and her cubs, or surprise a brownie dozing on his moose carcass, I'll pay the price for a lack of situational awareness and probably wish I had a Guide Gun or a pump loaded with Brennekes. At least the Glock will be better than lots of other handguns, and definitely better than nothing. And it's not so heavy or expensive that I won't carry it.

As an anecdote: Over the holidays I visited with a friend that owns the Trading Post in Wiseman, and he related that his friend that owns the service station in Coldfoot found several of his sled dogs killed amidst lots of bear sign. He investigated and was rushed by a grizzly, which he killed with.......a .38 Special. A very old boar, with few teeth and no fat. I think that's what they call a Significant Emotional Event.

Do you know where his bullets struck the bear?

Thanks,

T-Star
 
I don't, Texas Star, but I'll try to find out the next time I talk to my friend.
 
to be safe, you need to think of something else. you will be dead long before the bear is.
 
to be safe, you need to think of something else. you will be dead long before the bear is.

Wrong mindset! Churchill said it before me, but never, never,never. never give up!

I know of a case in which a man stabbed a lion as it was dragging him off to eat. He wasn't planning on playing Tarzan, but it worked. His rifle was on his horse, and two lions attacked out of the long grass. His horse bolted, throwing him. His belt knife was all that he had. He got off with an arm that was only partially efffective thereafter. The lion's hide was on display for years after, in Kruger National Park.

If a knife can kill a lion, maybe a handgun can kill a big bear. They sometimes do, you know. I've encountered a number of such incidents.

And a black bear may be what attacks, if anything does. The majority of PREDATORY bear attacks are by black bears. I know of one killed by a fisherman (with a knife!) that was found to have about seven men stashed nearby, in a meat cache.

Keep in mind that this couple will carry rifles and maybe a 12 gauge. But if one can't get to the rifle, or it jams, a handgun can be priceless. I'd use a S&W M-629 with six-inch barrel. But the lady involved can't handle a .44 Magnum, or any N-frame gun. The man will carry a .44 Mag or a .454. I'm going to encourage them to go to a zoo or museum and study bear anatomy. Does anyone have diagrams of a bear's body, showing the internal organs?

T-Star
 
I know of one killed by a fisherman (with a knife!) that was found to have about seven men stashed nearby, in a meat cache.
I don't see any smiley faces about, so I assume you're serious. I'm told everything is bigger in Texas, but I'm calling BS on the body count.

Brian~
 
Honestly, not enough gun. People relying on mag capacity may be in for a rude surprise too. You can really only count on that first shot. Bears are FAST and can get in really close before you know they are there. (My guide once hit a large brownie on the nose with a stick while swatting bushes along the trail) For years I carried a Smith mdl 29 6" and quite honestly never for one moment decided that the long gun was too much hassle to carry.


I'd like to mention a side note, practice drawing the damn thing. A handgun does you no good when it's in a tight holster wrapped over by fishing gear, rain ponchos and pack straps. On one occasion the guide was the only person out of five that managed to bring a gun to aim. That bear could have had all six of us if he'd have had a mind to.
 
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Having never had to deal with any animal personally like a bear, I will relay a story about my wife's uncle Earl:

He lived in the hills in back country Eastern Tennessee. He was uneducated and a drunk. He also possessed unassailable comfidence, probably because his body had adapted to being in a state of near-constant inebriation.

There were several Black bears that lived in the area that ate garbage and ruined cookouts from time to time. People shot at them, usually with shotguns or whatever they could find, more as a deterrent or annoyance to drive them away. None were ever killed. These were usually 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot.

In a state of drunkenness, Early had taken to playing with two bear cubs out of eyeshot of any "kinfolk." This continued for several minutes. Supposedly he was giving them bits of food and punctuating his play with swigs of whiskey from the heavy glass bottle we was drinking out of.

From the woods came a mother bear that assumed some sort of threatening position and walked up to Earl. The noise she made alerted other people who all came out with their shotguns and whatnot, but none had rifles. Nobody could take a shot because Earl could shake hands with this bear he was so close. She assumed some sort of position where she projected her muzzle forward and snarled at him. When this happened he stood up and casually guzzled the last few ounces of whiskey in the bottle. As he licked his lips he reached back and whacked the bear's muzzle as hard as he could with that (now) empty whiskey bottle. The bottle shattered and injured the she bear. Almost instantly she retreated from the scene with her cubs in hot pursuit, followed by volley of shotgun fire.

So for Blacks it would seem the best defense would be a heavy glass whiskey bottle. Since Grizzlies and Browns are a bit too tall for this approach, a nice purpose-built revolver like the Ruger Alaskan in 454 of with reasonable accuracy might be helpful for bear work. But I might keep the bottle just in case.
 
If I was going to use a 10mm for bear protection I would take a look at Buffalo Bore's loads with either the 220gr hard cast lead bullet, or their 200 FMJ FP.

I prefer a 4" 44 Mag S&W in bear country, but will admit there were times I carried a 1911, in griz country, in 45 ACP, with 230gr Ball, and later on the Buffalo Bore 230gr +P FP.
 
Neat thread that got resurrected. I must have missed it the first time around. I bought a number of guns from WWG up in Anchorage over the internet. They sold me two neat old Alaskan bear guns, a cut down Remington Model 11 from long, long ago (still has the safety in the trigger guard) and a cut down and reblued Winchester Model 12 that left the factory in 1919. They also sold me a neat old 1975 Colt SP-1 that I never should have traded. The latter is interesting. I'm told that the white guys have big bores, but the natives tend to just carry around .223s and have been using ARs for years against bears. One large polar bear, or polar grizzly hybrid or some such, was featured on Monster Quest. The native that killed it used his personal full auto M16 and riddled it. That's one way to accomplish it.

Anyway, if someone is moving to Alaska permanently, Class III weapons are perfectly legal. While I'd have WWG customize a Guide Gun with their mods for better extraction and so on, they also offer cut down "hawg's leg" versions that aren't much bulkier than a large pistol. Short Barreled Rifles and shotguns are available for the tax stamp, though I'm told that out in the boonies people don't generally bother with the tax stamp... Shrug. If a long gun is too troublesome to carry as is, simply modify one into a "whippet gun".

Something else no one mentioned that one could play with is a conversion barrel for the G20 that turns it into a 9x25mm Dillon.
 
I dunno

I like my 10mm Glock...but for protection against big bears I dunno...rather have it than nothing.

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I am not sure ANY pistol (even the much vaunted .500) is ideal for large brown bears. I prefer more, like the .375 H&H or above. If the Glock 20 it is, though, I would load it with heavy loads from Norma, or Buffalo Bore has a hard cast and a FMJ that I would go to. The Glock is probably a good choice for AK (the weather resistance) and I have found it as comfortable and reliable as anything else to shoot with the 10mm, which ,besides the .45 ACP, is the only auto round I care for. The 10mm/.45/.44 arena are good to buy some time to get to the house/truck and get a nice .416 Rigby into action. The problem is the shooter. Yes there are those individuals who can make a perfect shot all the time, no matter what. Then there are the people who can make the perfect shot and drop them when everything goes right. With bears things rarely go right (they are like us in that respect) and you can't plan for what may do the job under certain circumstances, you have to plan for what will clean up the mess when everything goes to total ****. You are never prepared for any situation that any animal will throw at you unless you lug a .577NE around all the time.
 
The people I know regard 44 Mag as the minimum. If she can't handle it, the shotgun sounds like a good choice.
 
10mm bear defense

I carry the Glock 20. A few years ago, in Colorado, I had a benign encounter with a large Black bear. Not a small black bear. A large one. Although I had my Glock 20 with 15 round magazine I felt, very very unarmed. Also, I had in my hands a single shot 30-06 (Ruger). I still felt very unarmed. But I did have my Glock 20 none the less. If you carry it, that is what you are stuck with, if you do then I recommend Gold Dot bullets. Designed to Penetrate and hold it's mass. Hand loaded to higher velocities. You can't really buy Bear loads over the counter in 10mm. But mind the pressure.
 
I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.
 
I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.
 
I guess that tells us how smart "most" people really are. I would like to throw that spare tire out of the back of my Jeep since I've never used it yet, and replace it with more fried chicken, trail mix and diet Vernors, but I've talked to people that have known people that have had flats before...The fact that you might only need that 8 pound rifle once is enough for me.

Do you wear a kevlar vest everywhere you go? How about a helmet and 5pt harness in your car? The chances are good that you *might* need one of these things even more than that 8 pound rifle. Life is all about taking calculated risks.

As far as a G20 for bears, I admit to having no personal experience. It does seem funny to me that most folks who disparage it claim (perhaps rightly so) no handgun has enough power and all rely on a lucky CNS shot. If that's the case, a 10mm with FMJ or hardcast will probably penetrate as well as a .44 magnum.

I do feel that a 10mm on the hip is better than a .45-70 in camp, and even going unarmed and simply being aware is better than cowering inside the RV afraid of bears. Perhaps pepper spray is a better choice for your friends.

I freely admit to looking longingly at a G20 as a possible outdoors replacement for my 329pd. I like the 329, but could probably shoot the G20 better, and it is a bit flatter and better for urban use. I camp a lot, but not in grizzly country, so the biggest animal I have to worry about is black bears, cougars.

In conclusion, I'd much rather face a coastal brown bear with a 10mm (or even a 9mm) in my hand than no gun. Would I rather have a 500? Yes. Of course, I would rather have a rifle. Scratch that, I would rather be in an APC with twin 50's on top. Wait, no, I would rather be 3,000 feet overhead in a warthog. You get the idea.
 
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