148 gn Jacketed HBWC Failure #2!

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Three or fouir times a year I shoot my April '42 Victory .38 S&W in a 48 round classic pistol match. About the same number of times annualy I use my 686-4 in a 90 round PPC type event shot out to 50 yards.

Becuase .357/358 bullets tumble in the S&W's .361 bore I use 148 gn HBWC projectiles to expand to the bore. When my main supplier stopped stocking lead I changed to jacketed projectiles and decided to "economise" by shooting the same bullet in both calibre.

A few years ago now I experienced a mishap with the Victory. Things were going well then there was a very loud discharge, heavier recoil and the gun was tied up solidly. When I finally got the cylinder open and extracted the case I found the jacket still in the case but the lead centre of the bullet blown out. I posted about it here and concensus was that it was a jacket failure which, occasionally occurs with this type of bullet.

Two weeks ago I was shooting my 686. The load was top end .38/low end +P level loading using the 148 gn JHBWC and the Mulwex equivilent of H4227 (Mulwex made both the original H4227 load and the current incarnation of that powder. The only difference with the Mulwex brand is the addition of a coating to the powder to lower temperatures for the Australian military). At 10 grains of powder in the .38 Special case there is no room in the case for a double charge

Once again things were going normally when there was another very loud discharge, heavier recoil and the gun tied up. When I got it open I found the lead centre missing and the jacket was half in the case and protruding enough into the forcing cone to need tapping back. The primer had been poped out and the base of the case separated.

Now there have been only two such failures over around 3000 loaded rounds in both calibre. But that is two too many.

I have changed back to loading lead HBWC bullets for my Victory and 158 gn JRN ones for the 686.

I do not need the sudden excitement of any more jacket failures.
 
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"High end 38/ low end +P" is way too high for ANY hollow base WC, jacketed or not. Countless guns have been ruined this way.

That's not "jacket failure", that's user error.

Why not just get (or cast?) the correct sized bullets?

Sorry for being blunt.

The load I was using was over 1/2 grain below max for the LHBWC on the powder manufacturers website. Listed at @930 fps and 14,500 cup. That to me is high end .38/low end +P although others may differ.

And this would not account for the failure in the .38S&W load which was midway between min and max.

As for the right sized projectiles, .361 are unobtianable in Kiwiland as are moplds. I could import a mold but don't cast much any more. LHBWC are available again.
 
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With a soft lead HBwc bullet in a 38 special.........

any thing over 850 fps is asking for trouble.

Sure the LE left the range with the 148 gr HB in their weapons by "Mistake" some times, since they were better than the lead round nose in the 50's , but............

Try a BBwc lead 148 gr bullet if you have to push the envelope, to be on the safe side.

sorry;
I did not notice the J hbwc...........
 
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JHBWC??

I've not seen everything in this world, but I've never seen or heard of a JHBWC. The OP is using Australian components, so there might be something there we yanks are not familiar with. Can't imagine the purpose of a jacket on a wadcutter bullet, hollow base or bevel base. I've probably fired more lead HBWC's than anything else, always at popgun velocities. They are as near to trouble free as you can get with a centerfire, hence their popularity for bullseye.
 
Is it possible that the JHBWC bullet is plated and not jacketed? It could be that this condition was caused by a squib load.
 
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I've not seen everything in this world, but I've never seen or heard of a JHBWC. The OP is using Australian components, so there might be something there we yanks are not familiar with. Can't imagine the purpose of a jacket on a wadcutter bullet, hollow base or bevel base. I've probably fired more lead HBWC's than anything else, always at popgun velocities. They are as near to trouble free as you can get with a centerfire, hence their popularity for bullseye.

Made by Berry. Check Midway
 
You are loading the HB bullet TOO HOT .
Jacket or no jacket ..."Low end +P " No ...don't
If you want a low+P wadcutter load then use a cast plain base wadcutter like Lyman #358432 or the NOE reproduction # 360-160-WC PB (360432)
These are 160 gr. plain based , cast wadcutters and you can drive them to low +P velocities with nary a problem .
I do it with 5.0 grains of Unique ...very accurate load that hits hard .

Gary
 
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Not all bullets are made equal. cast hollow base or swaged hollow base?

I know its a necro post revival, but i have always heard that swaged bullets are really soft, but anyone used the last version of the speer lead bullets for 38? cant cut into them with a finger nail, and i can cut into most lead round nose rimfire ammo

With my box of speer, i found i needed higher pressure from red dot and greed dot to get them to be accurate
 
My turn again..........
1st big mistake was using ANY .358 dia. bullet in your 38 S&W............ !!

2nd big no, no with the 148 gr bullet was using H 4227 power .......... !!

You need to buy the correct bullet and powder for those guns or maybe think about going fishing.
 
PPC Revolver Loads

Like the OP, I love shooting revolver matches based on the old police PPC course of fire. In fact, I was a state pistol champion as well as member of the Governor's 10 police marksmen back in the day during that career.

I guess we get spoiled here in America with a plethora of components that we can tailor to almost any bullet, to any powder and in any cartridge case to make the perfect round. For PPC style shooting, even at 50 yards, 750 fps is plenty fast enough for good results on target.

I don't think that that is the case down there in Kiwi Land so I understand having to use the equivalent of 4227, but that is probably the worst powder than you can use for PPC style shooting. It's not even a good powder in full power .357 Magnum loads. It's too bad that you can't find a .361 diameter bullets for your Victory Model. Have you considered casting your bullets with the correct bullet mould?

I'm glad that your revolvers are still in one piece. I'd certainly try and find a Bullseye equivalent or a Unique or Winchester 231 powder on the slow end. Almost any of the fast 12-gauge trap and skeet powders like clays and Red Dot will also work well for 38 Special and 38 S&W target loads.

What are your fellow competitors using in their revolvers?
 
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I dont understand the horror of someone using a .358 "38 special" slug in a 38 sw...


factories, back in the day when the 38 sw was a standard cartridge.... used the correct .361 diameter bullet, and the standard 38 special bullets to load the rounds. And as far as i have ever seen, Smith and Wesson was the only company putting the correct barrel bore diameter on a handgun marked 38 sw. everyone just used a remarked 38 special barrel
 
I dont understand the horror of someone using a .358 "38 special" slug in a 38 sw...

factories, back in the day when the 38 sw was a standard cartridge.... used the correct .361 diameter bullet, and the standard 38 special bullets to load the rounds. And as far as i have ever seen, Smith and Wesson was the only company putting the correct barrel bore diameter on a handgun marked 38 sw. everyone just used a remarked 38 special barrel

Having fired a great many .38 S&W reloads using both .361 and .358 lead bullets, I have failed to see any significant difference between them in performance on target. I once came into a batch of antique .38 S&W ammunition (very cheaply) that had numerous FTFs. I pulled the bullets from those duds, measured them, and found them to have a diameter of ------ 0.357". A very odd thing about the primer pockets of those cases. They were of a smaller diameter than today's, and small pistol primers were too large to fit. So I threw them all away.
 
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