158 gr Win 38 Spl LSWHP +P out of a 2.5"

[Harry58]

Is the 158 gr Winchester 38 Spl LSWHP +P going to have enough velocity out of a 2.5 inch barrel for it to perform decently? . . penetration & expansion. It is rated at 890 ft/s out of a 4 inch. Same question for a 158 gr Remington 38 Spl Lead HP +P, which is rated at the same velocity.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've found that the Remington load is better in all respects than the WW from shorter barrels. The RP load is softer, has a blunter nose, wider hollow point and a semi-hollow base that obturates and leads much less.

In addition, the Remington load actually expands from a short tube, while the WW usually needs a 4" barrel to expand reliably. I've water tested both loads from J-frame 1 7/8" barrels and found the Remington to chronograph 810-840 fps, depending on the gun.

I was turned on to this about 20 years ago by Allan Jones, Firearms Examiner for the Dallas County Crime Lab. Allan later went to CCI-Speer from which he is now retired and writing a ballistics column for Shooting Times.

 

[-db-]

If you do a search here on the forum for "FBI load" you will find pages of info on this load.

 

[Texas Star]

I've found that the Remington load is better in all respects than the WW from shorter barrels. The RP load is softer, has a blunter nose, wider hollow point and a semi-hollow base that obturates and leads much less.

In addition, the Remington load actually expands from a short tube, while the WW usually needs a 4" barrel to expand reliably. I've water tested both loads from J-frame 1 7/8" barrels and found the Remington to chronograph 810-840 fps, depending on the gun.

I was turned on to this about 20 years ago by Allan Jones, Firearms Examiner for the Dallas County Crime Lab. Allan later went to CCI-Speer from which he is now retired and writing a ballistics column for Shooting Times.

Wayne-

Thanks for the data on that semi-hollow base. That was new to me, and leading is a concern with this sort of load in general.

Because the OP would be using a .38 round in a .357 cylinder, I suspect that the rounds will not chrono much different than in a true snub .38. Anyone know?

Allan Jones is indeed a fine fellow, and I've discussed that load and his work at the Dallas lab in those days wth him.

Also talked with Dr. Vincent DiMaio, who was involved in the same series of ammo trials. One of them sent me some data that revealed that the standard lead RN bullet was dumping only a valid 74 ft. lbs. of energy in their target medium, probably gelatin. The lead HP opened well, and had about 200 ft. lbs. I'm going from old memory here, but that should be pretty close. I believe the first load wasted energy in overpenetration.

T-Star

 

[Harry58]

Thanks guys. So the Remington appears to be the right load for my 2.5 inch J-frame.

 

[jlanecole]

You might also check out the offerings from Buffalo Bore. Their +p LSWCHP is approaching .357 magnum performance. Very good ammunition, although a little pricey sometimes, compared to the others.

 

[Jamie]

Might want to check out the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, designed with the snubbie in mind.

 

[ContinentalOp]

You might also check out the offerings from Buffalo Bore. Their +p LSWCHP is approaching .357 magnum performance. Very good ammunition, although a little pricey sometimes, compared to the others.

Don't overlook the standard pressure loading. It's what I carry in my 3" 65 and 2" 64. It's more controllable than the +P BB load, but still hotter than the FBI loads from Remington, Winchester, or Federal based on published data.

Plus, it uses gas checks so bore leading is not a problem. While they're expensive, I usually just buy a few boxes, run a box through each of my guns, and then save one or two boxes to use for carry. Every few months I buy another box then run my carry ammo through the guns. The rest of the time I use cheap practice ammo (I like Speer's Lawman FBI load, FWIW).

 

[jlanecole]

Don't overlook the standard pressure loading. It's what I carry in my 3" 65 and 2" 64. It's more controllable than the +P BB load, but still hotter than the FBI loads from Remington, Winchester, or Federal based on published data.

Plus, it uses gas checks so bore leading is not a problem. While they're expensive, I usually just buy a few boxes, run a box through each of my guns, and then save one or two boxes to use for carry. Every few months I buy another box then run my carry ammo through the guns. The rest of the time I use cheap practice ammo (I like Speer's Lawman FBI load, FWIW).

I agree completely. I like the +p in my four inch Model 13, but it's a little stout in my Model 60. The standard pressure works great in the J-frame. I do carry a different load for a reload because the bullets are so soft in the BB.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I agree completely. I like the +p in my four inch Model 13, but it's a little stout in my Model 60. The standard pressure works great in the J-frame. I do carry a different load for a reload because the bullets are so soft in the BB.

I carry Speer Short-Barrel Gold Dots as my reloads for the same reason.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

The Speer 135 GDHP +P load is the latest generation of snubby loads and it was developed by Speer for NYPD to specifically work well in the short J-frame back up revolver barrels, of which there are still hundreds, if not thousands in service with that PD.

The load performs extemely well in testing and is perhaps "the latest and greatest". My generation of cops saw such excellent performance from the FBI loads out of our .38 snubs and service revolvers that I still feel very confident about its performance. Dallas PD killed literally dozens of offenders with the FBI load as did many other major PDs in the nation (Chicago and Miami come to mind). It doesn't work well through sheet metal or windshields, but in all other respects it's done a solid job.

I think and hope the Speer 135 load is going to improve on that record but I'm still waiting for more results.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks guys. So the Remington appears to be the right load for my 2.5 inch J-frame.

I agree, the lead used in the Remington load is slightly softer so it reliable expands at the slower velocities associated with a short barrel revolver.

I can't understand why everyone keeps recommending Buffalo Bore ammo. sure it's good ammo but the price is high but you get very little if any advantage. I can't afford to practice with an ammo that expensive and I have a feeling there are many here who can't either. Sorry, $26.99 + S&H for only 20 rounds is way too expensive for my blood especially when I can buy 50 rounds of the Remington FBI Load for only $32. The Federal FBI Load can still be found for only $20.95/50.

Don't get me wrong, if the BB ammo was the only one that worked I would buy it but it's not...

 

[Texas Star]

I agree, the lead used in the Remington load is slightly softer so it reliable expands at the slower velocities associated with a short barrel revolver.

I can't understand why everyone keeps recommending Buffalo Bore ammo. sure it's good ammo but the price is high but you get very little if any advantage. I can't afford to practice with an ammo that expensive and I have a feeling there are many here who can't either. Sorry, $26.99 + S&H for only 20 rounds is way too expensive for my blood especially when I can buy 50 rounds of the Remington FBI Load for only $32. The Federal FBI Load can still be found for only $20.95/50.

Don't get me wrong, if the BB ammo was the only one that worked I would buy it but it's not...

Thanks for mentioning that Federal 38G load. It has been dropped except for official orders, but shot well in my guns.

Does anyone know how it compares to the Winchester and Remington versions? My feeling is that it may be right in the middle. That might let it and the Wincheter item get in deeper in big animals, at the loss of some expansion, more important in human foes

Normally, I'd carry a .357 or larger caliber around big animals, but somtimes, you have to rely on a concealed .38 or a .38 duty weapon, per regulations. Massad Ayoob wrote about a NYC cop who had to use his M-10 to kill a polar bear that had attacked a man at a zoo.He did kill it, I think with one shot to the chest. If Ayoob sees this, he may recall the exact type of FBI load used. I think he said Winchester when we discussed it a few years ago. I asked if he was certain that it was the Plus P lead HP, not authorized by NYCPD, but he was adamant that the officer was carrying that ammo. I'm guessing that he supplied it himself, at the risk of being disciplined if it was discovered.
That says something about what he thought of .38 Special stopping power. After killing that big bear, I imagine that he thought better of the .38's capabilities.


T-Star

 

[photoman]

Federal 38G is back in stock at Ammunition To Go...

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 38 Special Federal LE 158gr. +P Semi-Wadcutter HP Ammo [FED38G] - $20.95

 

[pete950]

I also love Ammuntion to Go

But look at SGAmmo.com has this ammo cheaper
I think they are going for 15.95 per 50

Pete

 

[Texas Star]

But how do we know how old that 38G ammo is? If pretty fresh, it must be the best defense ammo buy around.

What does it cost to ship a couple of boxes? Does it come via UPS, or what? I've never ordered ammo by mail.

I can't find the Remington lead HP locally, so get my son to buy me a box in another city and bring it when he visits. I think I gave about $30 for the last box.

T-Star

 

[-db-]

I can't tell you how old that ammo is but, yes, ammo ordered online is typically delivered UPS.

 

[pete950]

It looks like new LE packaging to me!!

 

[Harry58]

A follow up question. Is the Remington 38 Spl 158 gr Lead HP also Ok for the standard 4" barrel? No point in having separate loads if this adequately meets the performance requirement. Also, for you guys who carry the 158 gr SWC or hollowpoint. What do you use for practice ammo? I don't really like using the LRN, but the 158 gr FMJ I have seen is usually +P.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

But how do we know how old that 38G ammo is? If pretty fresh, it must be the best defense ammo buy around.

What does it cost to ship a couple of boxes? Does it come via UPS, or what? I've never ordered ammo by mail.

I can't find the Remington lead HP locally, so get my son to buy me a box in another city and bring it when he visits. I think I gave about $30 for the last box.

T-Star

I don't remember how much the S&H was but I don't remember it being very high. I have bought a lot of ammo from Ammunition To Go. They have fairly good prices and they deliver quickly. I have some of the Federal FBI ammo and it looks new to me, not old stock. It shoots well too.