185 gr 9mm @950 fps
- Thread starter ladder13
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Same here - never heard of the company or a 185 gr in 9mm
Someone will have to show me how this is so much better than the standard 147-gr JHP 9mm ammo made by several if not all of the major ammo manufacturers. Based on how that case is made, I’ll bet it’s expensive.
Well, I'mglad to see that...
A couple years ago I started a thread where I experimented with 165 gr and 158 gr 9mm bullets. I got some results (not very good) but was stymied due to lack of a suitable soft, HP bullet that would expand at low velocities and scanty loading data for such bullets. (The powder companies weren't helpful)
Another problem is that I was trying to attain expanding velocity out of the typical short barrel carry pistol. Being able to get the velocity these promise with 185(!) gr bullets is pretty amazing, but I'll bet they can only do that out of a full size pistol.
So I'm not going to run out and buy these, though. My typical defense pistol is a Shield or similar compact.
A couple years ago I started a thread where I experimented with 165 gr and 158 gr 9mm bullets. I got some results (not very good) but was stymied due to lack of a suitable soft, HP bullet that would expand at low velocities and scanty loading data for such bullets. (The powder companies weren't helpful)
Another problem is that I was trying to attain expanding velocity out of the typical short barrel carry pistol. Being able to get the velocity these promise with 185(!) gr bullets is pretty amazing, but I'll bet they can only do that out of a full size pistol.
So I'm not going to run out and buy these, though. My typical defense pistol is a Shield or similar compact.
Interesting but...........
For years, the 38 special had a 158 gr bullet as it's heavy SD bullet.
It also had a much longer case with a huge powder volume at hand.
The short 9mm case has enough problems with the long heavy 147 gr bullet.
Getting powders to move it fast enough for a good SD loading is taxing.
A 185 gr bullet and a new case design, will certainly open up a BIG can of worms!!
For years, the 38 special had a 158 gr bullet as it's heavy SD bullet.
It also had a much longer case with a huge powder volume at hand.
The short 9mm case has enough problems with the long heavy 147 gr bullet.
Getting powders to move it fast enough for a good SD loading is taxing.
A 185 gr bullet and a new case design, will certainly open up a BIG can of worms!!
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Interesting development, assuming manufacturer's data is accurate. Still can't imagine what the potential uses or advantages might be, but I remain open to input from the experts.
I have played around with heavy-for-caliber bullets for quite a few years. Haven't yet found a reliable source for depleted uranium in sufficient quantities for production, and unobtainium remains mostly unobtainable.
So, teach me! I want to learn!
I have played around with heavy-for-caliber bullets for quite a few years. Haven't yet found a reliable source for depleted uranium in sufficient quantities for production, and unobtainium remains mostly unobtainable.
So, teach me! I want to learn!
The claims they make are utterly preposterous.
"Knockdown power?" No such thing!
"Destructive momentum?" Now that's a new one. What is destructive momentum? What is the unit of measure of destructive momentum? How is it measured? How does momentum cause destruction? Destruction of what?
"Destructive Momentum" belongs on the ash heap along with those venerable myths Stopping Power, Hydrostatic Shock, Energy Dumping / Energy Transfer, and Temporary Wound Cavitation.
Hilarious.
And that two-piece case? Aluminum base and stainless steel body? How much does this stuff cost? What does it do that any other round won't do?
This joins the other magic bullets: Critical Defense, Power Ball, Hybrid X, RIP, Maximum Expansion, Novx, Xtreme Cavitator, ARX, and all the rest which separate the shooter from his money while promising to substitute technology for shooting skill.
I'll stick with Q4318 for the street.
"Knockdown power?" No such thing!
"Destructive momentum?" Now that's a new one. What is destructive momentum? What is the unit of measure of destructive momentum? How is it measured? How does momentum cause destruction? Destruction of what?
"Destructive Momentum" belongs on the ash heap along with those venerable myths Stopping Power, Hydrostatic Shock, Energy Dumping / Energy Transfer, and Temporary Wound Cavitation.
Hilarious.
And that two-piece case? Aluminum base and stainless steel body? How much does this stuff cost? What does it do that any other round won't do?
This joins the other magic bullets: Critical Defense, Power Ball, Hybrid X, RIP, Maximum Expansion, Novx, Xtreme Cavitator, ARX, and all the rest which separate the shooter from his money while promising to substitute technology for shooting skill.
I'll stick with Q4318 for the street.
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A bit too "unconventional" and "Gimicky" for me! The 9mm Pistol was just never designed for 185 grain bullets and 2 piece case! I'm betting the recoil is where "the price" is to be paid and accelerated wear on the gun is also something to be concerned about.
I would think the "knockdown power" they are referring to has been extrapolated from foot pounds of energy- which is nothing more than a factor of velocity and bullet weight.
All in all, I'm glad to see someone still looking for a "better mouse trap" however I for one would pass on this thing. My EDC carry load from my Sig P365 is the Speer 124 grain +P "Short Barrel" Gold Dot. Even by the chart they show on their website, it is right up there in effectiveness and is still conventional and being manufactured by Speer (whom I trust).
I would think the "knockdown power" they are referring to has been extrapolated from foot pounds of energy- which is nothing more than a factor of velocity and bullet weight.
All in all, I'm glad to see someone still looking for a "better mouse trap" however I for one would pass on this thing. My EDC carry load from my Sig P365 is the Speer 124 grain +P "Short Barrel" Gold Dot. Even by the chart they show on their website, it is right up there in effectiveness and is still conventional and being manufactured by Speer (whom I trust).
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The subsonic 158 grain 9MM load is nothing new. IMI has been offering it for many decades. Fiochii also produces a 158 as do other manufacturers
The 158 loading is designed to give more energy in subsonic ammunition (supressed use)
I began hand loading my own 158s about 20 or more years ago when the IMI supply dried up
Fortunately that fine ammunition is once again easily available for those folks that do not hand load
Now that more 165 grain projectiles are available for the 9MM cartridge I have switched to loading one of those bullets instead
With the 165 you load the 9MM to full pressure and still stay subsonic. That gives you maximum energy in a subsonic 9MM loading
I know they are really shiny
The 158 loading is designed to give more energy in subsonic ammunition (supressed use)
I began hand loading my own 158s about 20 or more years ago when the IMI supply dried up
Now that more 165 grain projectiles are available for the 9MM cartridge I have switched to loading one of those bullets instead
With the 165 you load the 9MM to full pressure and still stay subsonic. That gives you maximum energy in a subsonic 9MM loading
I know they are really shiny
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If I wanted a 185 grain bullet at 950 fps I would buy a 40.
Buying a new gun in a caliber that does what you want makes more sense than trying to convert something you already own into something it was not designed to be.
People are practically giving away 40s on the used market right now and while 40 S&W ammo is more expensive than 9mm it is going to be a lot cheaper than specialty ammo like this. Since 40 S&W is still used by a lot of police agencies ammo makers spent a lot of time and energy developing bullets and loaded ammo that performs very, very well.
Heavy bullets are better for knocking down steel plates but that does not mean they are more effective for self defense. In both 9mm and 40 it seems like the standard weight bullets perform better than the extra heavy ones.
Buying a new gun in a caliber that does what you want makes more sense than trying to convert something you already own into something it was not designed to be.
People are practically giving away 40s on the used market right now and while 40 S&W ammo is more expensive than 9mm it is going to be a lot cheaper than specialty ammo like this. Since 40 S&W is still used by a lot of police agencies ammo makers spent a lot of time and energy developing bullets and loaded ammo that performs very, very well.
Heavy bullets are better for knocking down steel plates but that does not mean they are more effective for self defense. In both 9mm and 40 it seems like the standard weight bullets perform better than the extra heavy ones.
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I misread the heading as 165, not 185
I agree 185 is too heavy for caliber
The major reason for using 9MM projectiles in the 147 and over category is effective suppression
I agree 185 is too heavy for caliber
The major reason for using 9MM projectiles in the 147 and over category is effective suppression
Interesting I suppose. I might buy box if it was $.40 a round but no way at $1.40 a round.
I wonder how much extra powder capacity their case has? There’s no way you can stuff a 185 grain bullet into any normal 9mm case without turning it into a boat tail bullet due to the internal taper of the case.
I wonder how much extra powder capacity their case has? There’s no way you can stuff a 185 grain bullet into any normal 9mm case without turning it into a boat tail bullet due to the internal taper of the case.
I’m intrigued but skeptical. My LGS will probably get some to test I hope.
I foresee success initially due to curiosity but failure long term. Too expensive.
I foresee success initially due to curiosity but failure long term. Too expensive.
per post #12;
So you load 165gr RN bullets?
I would think a 165gr FN or HP would be better, if available for added
powder volume, for the little 9mm case?
Glad that you have done it and it works out for you.
Heck, I have trouble getting enough powder in the 9mm case with
the long, Berry 147gr RN bullet!!
post #10 note;
the Q4318 load for ... "street use" is the
Winchester 124 NATO FMJ loading.
Just in case others did not know.
carry on.
So you load 165gr RN bullets?
I would think a 165gr FN or HP would be better, if available for added
powder volume, for the little 9mm case?
Glad that you have done it and it works out for you.
Heck, I have trouble getting enough powder in the 9mm case with
the long, Berry 147gr RN bullet!!
post #10 note;
the Q4318 load for ... "street use" is the
Winchester 124 NATO FMJ loading.
Just in case others did not know.
carry on.
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I'm curious as to how they can get a 185 grain bullet in 9x19 to exit the muzzle at the stated 950 fps and maintain safe pressure levels. A 147 grain bullet at 1000 fps is at the limit of standard pressure and 1050 fps is +P.
AA #7 works very well with this projectile. 5.7 grains will drive the projectile to 880 in the shorter barrels to just around 950 in the longer SMG barrels.
I have been running that load for about 2 years now
I found a very little load data on the 158 gr.....
...and maybe one suggestion for a couple of powders on loading the 165 gr.
Off course I still tried to attain a decent velocity, wanting to exceed the power of the .38 special (which is about all I got) without knowing what the max loading was. I got ZERO expansion with the HP SWCs that I used. Well, actually, the tips expanded, but their diameter was no more than the shank of the bullet.
I'll look for a box of Fiocci's to play with.
The subsonic 158 grain 9MM load is nothing new. IMI has been offering it for many decades. Fiochii also produces a 158 as do other manufacturers......
The 158 loading is designed to give more energy in subsonic ammunition (supressed use)
I began hand loading my own 158s about 20 or more years ago when the IMI supply dried upFortunately that fine ammunition is once again easily available for those folks that do not hand load
Now that more 165 grain projectiles are available for the 9MM cartridge I have switched to loading one of those bullets instead
With the 165 you load the 9MM to full pressure and still stay subsonic. That gives you maximum energy in a subsonic 9MM loading
I know they are really shiny
...and maybe one suggestion for a couple of powders on loading the 165 gr.
Off course I still tried to attain a decent velocity, wanting to exceed the power of the .38 special (which is about all I got) without knowing what the max loading was. I got ZERO expansion with the HP SWCs that I used. Well, actually, the tips expanded, but their diameter was no more than the shank of the bullet.
I'll look for a box of Fiocci's to play with.
