1858 Remington donated to my museum

[pasound]

Last week this Remington 1858 36 caliber percussion revolver was donated to the West Virginia State Museum. I took pictures to study it, as it looks very odd. The serial number is 27538, and it has a 38 Colt centerfire cylinder fitted. The nearly-missing finish color does show that the cylinder is probably different (newer?) than the frame and barrel. The owner stated the pistol was carried by his grandfather many years ago while delivering mail on a rural route, and purchased sometime after 1890.

His story is that it is was converted to 38 rimfire about 1867, one of 20,000 requested by the Government, then converted again to 38 Colt centerfire, number 377 (number stamped next to the original serial) under a Government request to Remington to produce 1,000 of these as test revolvers.

My problem with the 38 Colt conversion is that it just doesn't look professional. The new back plate and loading gate are pinned in place over the original frame, and there is no way to easily eject the spent cartridges without removing the cylinder and pushing them out by hand. Not as friendly as a S&W top break or Colt revolver of the same vintage.

Uberti makes high quality 1858 Remington reproductions, both as black power percussion, and as 38 conversions - none look as rough as this does, finished. Uberti seemingly builds theirs to the original Remington specifications. The few pictures I've seen of originals also don't seem as rough.

Am I seeing a gunsmith's centerfire conversion over a rim fire, and not a factory gun?

https://i.postimg.cc/BZ2t6Zyw/1-frame-open-right.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Znmb33gs/3-cylinder-back.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MZt2thjp/4-loading-gate.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/65msxncs/5-assembled-loading-rod-loose.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/4NM0SZ4s/6-more-serials.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DZBjd3YV/7-hammer-and-action.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MGwdCpC2/9-proof-marks.jpg

Oops - sorry - copied the wrong links to post the pictures here directly...

 

[gregintenn]

It does appear to be a gunsmith conversion to me. I have one in 38 rimfire I believe to be factory, but I get conflicting reports. So far, I've been unable to dig up a lot of information on the Remington conversions. I would be interested in hearing what you learn with your search. Here's mine.

 

[pasound]

I'm still looking for some history. Seems to be very little available. Glad the pic of your 38 rimfire has the same loading gate - at least that's a connection to some history. Can you get a picture of the breech face with the cylinder out? I'd love to see if there are differences. Sorry I didn't post one with that view of the museum piece - at the time didn't think it might be a factor.

 

[gregintenn]

I'm still looking for some history. Seems to be very little available. Glad the pic of your 38 rimfire has the same loading gate - at least that's a connection to some history. Can you get a picture of the breech face with the cylinder out? I'd love to see if there are differences. Sorry I didn't post one with that view of the museum piece - at the time didn't think it might be a factor.

Not the best pic, but does this show what your are looking for? You'll notice mine has an ejector rod. If the ivory grips aren't original, they are sure enough old, and expertly fitted. Usually, the ivories are reserved for engraved specimens it seems.

 

[Kurusu]

One thing I know. The ejector rod is missing.

And. That is an 1861 not an 1858.

 

[pasound]

The museum one has no ejector rod. That was one of the things that raised a flag for me. Your back plate shows a screw. I'll look at the museum Remington tomorrow, but my memory is saying the plate looked pinned - no screw. The more I think about it, the 3-digit additional serial number is probably the number for the .38 rimfire conversion. Makes me think this was a gunsmith conversion much later in its life. And the original owner's statement that it was .38 Colt... wasn't the .38 Colt CF actually a different size than a .38 S&W CF? There seems to be no history about Remington 1858 .38 CF conversions of any type - just the rimfires.

 

[Kurusu]

The museum one has no ejector rod. That was one of the things that raised a flag for me. Your back plate shows a screw. I'll look at the museum Remington tomorrow, but my memory is saying the plate looked pinned - no screw. The more I think about it, the 3-digit additional serial number is probably the number for the .38 rimfire conversion. Makes me think this was a gunsmith conversion much later in its life. And the original owner's statement that it was .38 Colt... wasn't the .38 Colt CF actually a different size than a .38 S&W CF? There seems to be no history about Remington 1858 .38 CF conversions of any type - just the rimfires.

The loading lever has the cut for the ejector rod flag.

 

[pasound]

I thought that was the cut to hold the shroud I've seen on all other 1858's.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

First point, there really is no such thing as a Model 1858 Remington. The year 1858 refers to the patent granted to Bealls, and Remington manufactured the revolvers as both the Remington Army .44 and Navy .36 variations. Actual manufacture started in about 1860 or so, a time period in which firearms were in very high demand due to the American Civil War.

Colt had pretty much locked up the Union contracts, producing Model 1860 and Model 1851 revolvers just about as quickly as they could. Then in about 1863 there was a catastrophic fire at the Colt factory, interrupting production at a critical period of the war effort. Other manufacturers existed, such as Manhattan Arms (shameful copies of Colt designs that resulted in lawsuits for patent infringements), Starr, and others.

Remington stepped up and accepted a contract for the Army Model (and subsequent New Army Model) revolvers. There was a public uproar when congressmen started screaming about "war profiteering" by Remington, as their revolvers were priced at $0.50 more than the Colt revolvers.

There may have been any number of cartridge conversions produced by the Remington company, but undoubtedly there were far more produced by individual gunsmiths and small factories specializing in such conversions during the post-Civil War years. One of the more prolific companies was Great West Arms of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, advertising for over a decade to purchase Colt and Remington percussion revolvers for conversion to cartridge arms. I'm sure there were others, and I'm equally sure that there were no industry standards pertaining to the conversion work or cartridge applications.

This is a very specialized field of antique arms history. Determining authenticity, provenance, etc, is extremely difficult at best, and likely impossible in many cases. About the best you can do without expert assistance is to fully document the history as best you can. Beyond that will require expert help.

 

[pasound]

The Curator at my museum is a documented "expert" on antique guns. He's even been consulted by tv shows such as "Sons of Guns" for his knowledge. He's just as confused about this Remington as anyone I've asked.

 

[pasound]

This last week I've passed this around my Curator, my Collections Manager, and two "gun enthusiasts" on my staff. We all think the caliber is not .38 Colt. No history at all about a 1858 in .38 Colt. Looking for some .38 Colt and .38 Smith and Wesson ammo just to check the cylinder chambers.

Anyone have some?

 

[les.b]

Are you the WV State Museum in Charleston? If you were a little closer I would drop off some examples of various cartridges. But the Colt .38 is the same diameter as the .38 special, just a little shorter. The .38 S&W is shorter than the Special, and a bit fatter in diameter.

Best Regards, Les

 

[pasound]

That's my work location. The building opens Monday the 8th after the long holiday weekend. Would be good to see what chambers.

 

[Kurusu]

I thought that was the cut to hold the shroud I've seen on all other 1858's.

Now it's me who doesn't know what you are talking about.

The rectangular cut I'm talking about is on the loading lever near the place where the loading lever "sail" ends. It's not normally present in any "regular" cap & ball Remington revolver.

Also. In your 5th picture you will notice that the right "wing" in the front of the base pin was shaved, that was done to make room for the tube of the ejecting rod as in the picture gregintenn shows.

It does not have an ejector rod today, that's obvious. But it used to have one.

 

[pasound]

Sorry - was not sure if the 1858's had the lever cut for the shroud or not. This is the first one in our museum, probably the first one I've seen out of another museum display (that was not ours). I'm sure there are parts missing. That's obvious from the ones shared in the info above, and other information I've received.