1907 Army trials

Bob Wright

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I've been pondering the Colt and Smith & Wesson double action revolvers submitted for the US Army's test trials of 1907. According to most sources I've read, any revolver submitted for these tests had to chamber the .45 caliber rimmed cartridge developed by Frankford Arsenal.

Yet, I've never seen nor read of any of these guns. Would a S&W Hand Ejector or New Century chambered for the .45 S&W cartridge accept the .45 M1906 round? And, what became of these guns?

Bob Wright
 
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I've been pondering the Colt and Smith & Wesson double action revolvers submitted for the US Army's test trials of 1907. According to most sources I've read, any revolver submitted for these tests had to chamber the .45 caliber rimmed cartridge developed by Frankford Arsenal.

Yet, I've never seen nor read of any of these guns. Would a S&W Hand Ejector or New Century chambered for the .45 S&W cartridge accept the .45 M1906 round? And, what became of these guns?

Bob Wright

.45 Auto Cartridge History >> Sight M1911

Glad they took their time accepting both the round and the pistol. Because I have a Colt M1909 revolver in .45 Colt.
 
There is currently a Colt Trial pistol on GunBroker. You will want to search:

Colt Model 1907 US Trials Pistol

The listing is an interesting read.
 
I don't want to have to search Gunbroker.

Can you summarize this gun? Is it about like the Colt M-1909?

This topic is an interesting one.

Strangely, I've never thought much about those revolvers.
 
I don't want to have to search Gunbroker.

Can you summarize this gun? Is it about like the Colt M-1909?

This topic is an interesting one.

Strangely, I've never thought much about those revolvers.

I had a 1909 Colt once. The barrel had been cut to 4". It was basically a .45 Colt New Service.

"The rims on the 45 Colt proved to be unsuitable.""Model 1909 used a proprietary round."

Mine fired .45 Colt with ease. The .45 Colt ammo of the late 19th and early 20th centuries had smaller rims than the present day .45 Colt.
 
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There is currently a Colt Trial pistol on GunBroker. You will want to search:

Colt Model 1907 US Trials Pistol

The listing is an interesting read.

There is a Colt 45 Automatic 1907 Trials Pistol on Gunbroker at the moment.

I thought this Thread was about Revolvers though, the ones Colt and Smith & Wesson submitted to the 1907 Trials.

Is there a Colt or Smith & Wesson 1907 Trials Revolver on Gunbroker right now?
 
Hi Bob,

To address your question regarding the 45 revolver cartridge and the S&W chambered for it:

THE VERY FIRST PROTOTYPE TRIPLE LOCKS WERE CHAMBERED IN THE 45 S&W SPECIAL

The .45 S&W Special began life as the .45 Frankford or "Cal. .45 Ball, Model of 1906" developed in late 1905 by Frankford Arsenal for use in testing revolvers submitted for the Army trials of Jan 1907. The case was rimmed, 0.923" in length, and was loaded with a 230-grain cupro-nickel jacketed round-nose bullet over 7.2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder. The muzzle velocity was 800 fps. S&W had high hopes for a lucrative military contract, but it wasn't to be. As we well know, the military chose the Model 1911 Colt 45 Semi Auto Pistil and its new 45 ACP round.

10,000 rounds were ordered manufactured for the trials. The bulk of the casings were manufactured in April 1906, with most of the order being completed as loaded rounds by July of that year. The only reported head stamp is "F A 4 06". Evidently, both cannelured and uncannelured cases were made, with the cannalure being located on the case just behind the base of the bullet where it served to control seating depth.

It would seem that there was never any commercial production of this ammo, but the Union Metallic Cartridge Company provided 5000 rounds to Smith & Wesson in June of 1906.

For the semi-autos tested in the Army trials, there was a similar rimless cartridge, with a case length of 0.918" (also reported as 0.923"), loaded with the same 230-grain bullet as the revolver ammunition, and to the same muzzle velocity.

Attached is a drawing of two rimmed varieties of the cartridges used in the revolver tests with dimensions for both versions.
attachment.php

Photo credit: Triple Lock

In 1908 or 1909 [S&W] seriously considered introducing a model that was to be called the "45 S&W Special." This cartridge was designed for use in what became the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model [New Century] or Triple Lock. The cartridge was a revolver cartridge developed for military use at the Frankford Arsenal. Smith's anticipation of their 45 Spl (45 FA) chambered TLs for military and commercial success caused them to order a large quantity of boxes. So when their gun/cartridge was not adopted by the Army, it was never commercially sold. They were stuck with a huge pile of boxes labeled 45 Special inside the cover and on the end label.

As we all know, S&W never threw anything anyway. Therefore when the British came thru with a huge contract for 455 Mk II chambered Hand Ejector service revolvers for WW I, guess where the boxes went? Yep, British contract guns were packed in them and shipped across the big pond!

These boxes are usually found with a new 455 label glued over the 45 Spl end label. I can picture the British armorers unpacking the ~ 79,000+ 455 contract revolvers and once inspected, stamped, and issued to the military, a huge pile of these boxes stacked in the trash!

The boxes:
455 SN# 53541 Shipped June 9, 1916 in a 45 Special box from 1908 w/pasted over end label.
455s001JPG.jpg

455s002JPG.jpg



NOW ABOUT THE SMITH TLs CHAMBERED FOR THE 45 SPECIAL

Only two are known to my knowledge:

#2 Pre-production for Army Trials of Jan 1907, 4 screws (no trigger guard screw), 45 S&W Spl, no caliber markings, 6 1/2"
#09 Jim Fisher's is the only survivor of the four pre-production TLs used for the Army Trials, Jan 1907, 45 S&W Spl, no caliber markings, 6 1/2"


A NOTE ABOUT THE COLT NEW SERVICE 45 REVOLVER:

Colt chambered the New Service for the 45 Colt which were produced as the Frankford Arsenal 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge for it with widened rims to work with the DA extractor. The old Colt SA ammo rims were too small. The Colt NS 45 was in the trials. Don't know if they chambered specifically for the 45 Special or just used with 45 Colt chambers.

The 45 Colt NS was purchased by the army as a stop gap for the Philippine insurrection.
 
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It was obvious that the Board regarded the Colt to be superior to the S&W by reading the preceedings of the Trial Board, even though the details of the testing did not seem to be so clear. Full details of the War Department testing can be found starting on page 133 of the Pitman Notes on US Martial Amall Arms and Ammunition, Volume 2. For those interested in the trials, it is good reading.

Several pistols were presented, all in 45 caliber, Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, and White-Merrill. Only two revolvers were submitted, the Colt and S&W, both in 45 caliber, but there was mention of Webly-Forberry Automatic Revolver.

It appeared that the Board recommended the purchase of Colt and Savage pistols, even though stating they did not consider the automatic pistols having reached a stage of perfection as to justify adoption and issue to troops as a service weapon. They did recommend that a sufficient number ot both pistols to arm three troops of cavalry for testing, while also arming the troops with Colt DA revolvers for comparitive testing. This volume contains some 25 pages of the details of the trials and photos of all tested handguns. Photos below are of an actual 1907 trial Colt and S&W.
 

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Texas Star, I did not want to link the auction listing since it is still an open auction. Some forums frown upon doing so.

I do not think this is the same trial. This particular pistol is one of 207 semi-auto pistols and is the predecessor to the M1911. It is not applicable to this thread other than the interesting method of the trial and the use of .45 ammunitions. There is discussions of the ammunition development in the narrative of the listing.
 
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As to Hondo44's remarks:

A NOTE ABOUT THE COLT NEW SERVICE 45 REVOLVER:

"Colt chambered the New Service for the 45 Colt which were produced as the Frankford Arsenal 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge for it with widened rims to work with the DA extractor. The old Colt SA ammo rims were too small. The Colt NS 45 was in the trials. Don't know if they chambered specifically for the 45 Special or just used with 45 Colt chambers."

As I noted, that a M1909 Colt was submitted for the 1910 test, and that it took the ".45 ACP" cartridge. Either the revolver was not an M1909, or it was chambered for the .45 M1906 round, which would have been able to chamber and fire the .45 ACP, though would not extract without a poker.


Bob Wright
 
I saw the ammo boxes and read them.

The round specified was actually less powerful than .455 MK I/.455 Colt! (265 grains of lead at 750 FPS).

How many of you caught that?
 
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