OldGoat
Member
So much for my misplaced interest in scandium based 1911s.....Regards, Ed
1911 SC issue
- Thread starter jgh4445
- Start date
BruceM
Member
Enough said on this account.
I would like to know how the Insurance Company could make a "really good offer" for something they didn't have a legal right to?
Also, it should be noted that there is a difference between unfired and new. Also, this gun was damaged, right?
Anyway.....
Bruce
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BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
"I would like to know how the Insurance Company could make a "really good offer" for something they didn't have a legal right to?"
Once the insurance company pays a theft claim, they own the insured item if it is recovered and can sell it any way they want to so as to recover as much value as they can. Often, selling the item back to the insured gets them more than an auction will, is simpler and if the price they ask is reasonable, it generates good the will of the customer.
Once the insurance company pays a theft claim, they own the insured item if it is recovered and can sell it any way they want to so as to recover as much value as they can. Often, selling the item back to the insured gets them more than an auction will, is simpler and if the price they ask is reasonable, it generates good the will of the customer.
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BruceM
Member
Thank You!!
My point exactly.
Bruce
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Enough said? Sorry to bother you. perhaps you should stop reading the thread.
No legal right? You obviously don't know anything about the way insurance buys and subrogation works. Buff nailed it.
It was new AND unfired. Yes it was damaged but was still new and unfired as it had never been registered to anyone.
Huh? I'm confused.
lhump1961
US Veteran
I wouldn't base an opinion on a single gun...Smith has been making these guns for years with good success. I have personally owned a 1911Sc for years with no problem.
If Smith deems the gun safe to fire then they may send it back un-serviced. But it they deem it unsafe they may not repair it but also will not send it back. They will instead offer the discounted replacement.
Attachments
OldGoat
Member
lhump1961, please don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of S&W products! Maybe I read too much into the idea of Googling scandium S&Ws in the OP's comment. I love the design/profile of the 1911 S&W SC....wish I could afford one, BUT also am nervous about possible cracks. More sleepless nights! Thanks for your comments and Regards, Ed
Let me start by saying you are 100% correct - period. But this situation brings up an interesting side discussion. If you or I go to the dealer and purchase a firearm, we have to fill out a form 4473 and do an instant background check. Because the insurance company is recovering property they insured, does it absolve them of this federal requirement? I'd also be interested in knowing how the dealer would log these in his book, though I'm guessing first as stolen, then as either recovered or obtained from insurance company. In this particular case, it doesn't appear the insurance company ever took possession of the firearms, which may (?) absolve them of the required paperwork.
I know from what the OP posted, the entire movement of the firearms and their eventual return to the original dealer makes logistical and logical sense, but BATFE doesn't always agree on common sense. Just curious is all.
BruceM
Member
That, my friend, is blatantly obvious.
Bruce
lhump1961
US Veteran
Your comments are appreciated as well. I hope the OP finds satisfactory resolution.
Update on my issue. I got a call from “Mark” the CS rep at Smith. He said my pistol was unrepairable and was not safe to shoot. He said I had two choices, one, get the gun sent back to me and two, pay a discounted price for a replacement. I asked what the price would be and he said the MSRP is $1549 so they would let me have a replacement at wholesale cost which would be $1000. I told him I thought the MSRP was a little off as Buds retails them at around $1000 with free shipping. He told me that didn’t matter and that my choices were as he stated. I asked if they could sell me a frame and assemble my parts on it and I could pay for the frame and the labor cost. He said they do not do repair work unless it’s a warranty issue. I asked if they were having issues with scandium and he said that they were not. I asked how a substance they advertise as being stronger than steel could crack and the other mostly polymer pistols that were dropped along side this one didn’t. I also asked him to google scandium frames cracking and he said he wasn’t going to do that. He went on to say that they had sent my pistol to the “metal allergy” shop and it met hardness specs. He again said I only had two choices to pick one. I told him there might be another choice, could I speak to a supervisor. He said it was against company policy to elevate problems to “directors” so, no, he couldn’t transfer me to anyone else and then asked which option I wanted. I told him to send the pistol back. He said “OK, have a nice day” and hung up.
Not the service I was expecting from S&W CS. I made another phone call and found out that the whole place it on shutdown for two weeks and is barely staffed. The person I called wanted the name of the CS rep. He said to wait until he could look into the issue. I’ll wait.
Not the service I was expecting from S&W CS. I made another phone call and found out that the whole place it on shutdown for two weeks and is barely staffed. The person I called wanted the name of the CS rep. He said to wait until he could look into the issue. I’ll wait.
That is unacceptable. I think I would have told him to hold on to the gun while I contact my lawyer and the attorney general's office for my state. Unless of course he wanted to talk to his supervisor first and see if the supervisor wanted to disregard company policy on this one. If not, I would have made good on my promise. I don't know what your state laws are, but many have specific laws about warranties. I would also get the gun shop owner involved - either directly or with the attorney. You may even be able to file in small claims court - but everything depends on your state law, which you should research for yourself and/or speak to an attorney about.
Update: I contacted the dealer and told hime of my problems with the Smith CS folks and the fact that Smith won't do repair work on my pistol. He told me to hold off on any action until he had a chance to speak with them. After he called, he told me he got the same responses as I did. I got my pistol back with a letter saying that my pistol is beyond repair and is not safe to fire. I was again offered a replacement at the same price I can buy a new one for retail at Buds. I think I'm done with Smith. I would rather do business with a company that employs gunsmiths who actually can replace a frame or do gun repair work. Hate to say it but while I was waiting for my .45 to be repaired or returned, I went out and bought a Glock. Sure am enjoying it.
AveragEd
Member
I think you are loosing sight of the very important factor in this case that the gun was not a standard retail purchase. In that instance S&W would have undoubtedly replaced the gun at no charge or replaced the frame, their option. But as I said in my first post to this thread, you bought salvaged goods and as such are not a standard retail purchaser.
Every auto manufacturer requires that a warranty history be run on every vehicle surrendered to a dealership for warranty repairs and if that document is not attached to the repair order, the claim will be declined or charged back if paid before the documentation defect is discovered. That is mainly to catch "gray market" and salvaged vehicles as there is no warranty coverage on such vehicles as well as determine if there are any open recalls. Your gun is no different.
A local Ford dealer is currently selling a 2014 Chevrolet Silverado with 5,000 miles on it for a ridiculously low price. One of my co-workers was interested in it and asked me for advice. I warned him about things being too good to be true and all that and had him call a GM dealer for a warranty history. The truck turns out to be a Canadian export initially retailed there for which there is no U.S. warranty coverage. In fact, those 5,000 "miles" are actually kilometers as the instrument panel is metric. Buyer beware!
Just as that Ford dealer would be misrepresenting that truck if he sells it with factory warranty coverage, your gun dealer did that very thing if he told you your gun would be covered by Smith & Wesson's warranty. And if that is the case, he misrepresented the gun and owes you your money back, it's that simple.
Ed
Every auto manufacturer requires that a warranty history be run on every vehicle surrendered to a dealership for warranty repairs and if that document is not attached to the repair order, the claim will be declined or charged back if paid before the documentation defect is discovered. That is mainly to catch "gray market" and salvaged vehicles as there is no warranty coverage on such vehicles as well as determine if there are any open recalls. Your gun is no different.
A local Ford dealer is currently selling a 2014 Chevrolet Silverado with 5,000 miles on it for a ridiculously low price. One of my co-workers was interested in it and asked me for advice. I warned him about things being too good to be true and all that and had him call a GM dealer for a warranty history. The truck turns out to be a Canadian export initially retailed there for which there is no U.S. warranty coverage. In fact, those 5,000 "miles" are actually kilometers as the instrument panel is metric. Buyer beware!
Just as that Ford dealer would be misrepresenting that truck if he sells it with factory warranty coverage, your gun dealer did that very thing if he told you your gun would be covered by Smith & Wesson's warranty. And if that is the case, he misrepresented the gun and owes you your money back, it's that simple.
Ed
According to S&W, it had nothing to do with a "standard retail purchase". It had everything to do with the fact that it was not a "defect in material and/or workmanship and therefore would not be covered under warranty." Didn't have anything to do with Ford or Chevy or whether or not it was made in the US or Canada. They simply did not want to, A. replace the frame, or B. repair the small crack in the dust cover. Why? I don't know exactly but I did have their sales manager tell me that S&W does not want to show a lot of repairs and/or have a lot of time and money tied up in gunsmithing, so they would rather replace than repair. He also told me that the company used the "aluminum with scandium added" as a sales tool for the reps. They were told to advertise the fact to the dealers that the Scandium Frame, was as strong, if not stronger than steel. ( Might a cracked Scandium frame be a material defect?) He went on to say that S&W was aware of a problem with some of the Scandium frames.
In my letter I asked for a frame replacement or a repair that I would gladly pay for. I stressed that on the phone. I was not asking for anything for free. What really chapped me ( still does) is that they offered me a "significant discount" that would have me paying more than I could buy it for retail. That is not counting what I paid for the gun in the first place. Then, they sent it back to me with a new "good will offer" that was 50 dollars less than the original offer. To accept the offer, all I had to do was spend the $56 dollars ( I believe that is the correct Fed Ex 2nd day air charge from here to there) to ship it back along with the money for the replacement. Duuhh! Why did they send it back knowing it would cost me to send it back to them if I wanted to take them up on the new "good will" offer? They sure didn't offer to pay for return shipping! Lastly, they included in the letter that the pistol was "beyond repair and unsafe to fire". Really? A crack in the dust cover is beyond repair and unsafe? What kind of gunsmith made this determination? If I'm not mistaken you can cut the dust cover completely off of a 1911 and it will still function normally and not be unsafe.
I got a great price on from a well known smith to repair the crack, remove all flaws and with Ceracote H, refinish the frame and slide. That will also include the bonus of removing all of the S&W marking on the pistol in the process. With the cost of the repair, I'll have just under the normal retail price of the pistol. Life goes on.
In my letter I asked for a frame replacement or a repair that I would gladly pay for. I stressed that on the phone. I was not asking for anything for free. What really chapped me ( still does) is that they offered me a "significant discount" that would have me paying more than I could buy it for retail. That is not counting what I paid for the gun in the first place. Then, they sent it back to me with a new "good will offer" that was 50 dollars less than the original offer. To accept the offer, all I had to do was spend the $56 dollars ( I believe that is the correct Fed Ex 2nd day air charge from here to there) to ship it back along with the money for the replacement. Duuhh! Why did they send it back knowing it would cost me to send it back to them if I wanted to take them up on the new "good will" offer? They sure didn't offer to pay for return shipping! Lastly, they included in the letter that the pistol was "beyond repair and unsafe to fire". Really? A crack in the dust cover is beyond repair and unsafe? What kind of gunsmith made this determination? If I'm not mistaken you can cut the dust cover completely off of a 1911 and it will still function normally and not be unsafe.
I got a great price on from a well known smith to repair the crack, remove all flaws and with Ceracote H, refinish the frame and slide. That will also include the bonus of removing all of the S&W marking on the pistol in the process. With the cost of the repair, I'll have just under the normal retail price of the pistol. Life goes on.
AveragEd
Member
I'm glad it worked out for you even though their treatment of you is so contrary to their customary service.
For what it's worth, I paid a local gun shop $1,038 for my two-tone 1911Sc two years ago so their offer to you wasn't all that much above the gun's street price. I'm aware that there are some online sources that can shade that price a little but local service is worth something if/when it is needed.
Ed
For what it's worth, I paid a local gun shop $1,038 for my two-tone 1911Sc two years ago so their offer to you wasn't all that much above the gun's street price. I'm aware that there are some online sources that can shade that price a little but local service is worth something if/when it is needed.
Ed
