1917 45DA Army Tolerances-Out of spec?

[1917DA]

Hey all:

I have acquired a 1917 DA Army in 45ACP. It is a 5 screw and I believe it would be a "pre war".

It is original and has seen lots of use as the bluing has considerable holster wear. As far as I can tell it is numbers matching.

Upon closer inspection, the timing in SA and DA seems proper. I decided to check barrel to cylinder clearance and endshake followed by headspace.

I do not have headspace gauges, so I used feeler gauges for measurements. They are in .002 increments so I suppose there is a small amount of error possible. I checked several times for each test to ensure a proper reading with some drag on the feeler.

Pulling the cylinder firmly away from the barrel and checking from left and right, the .016 inch indicates the B/C gap. As I understand it .010 is the upper limit here.

Pulling the cylinder toward the barrel, the .006 feeler fits.

Am I correct that the endshake is .010? This also seems excessive from what I have read (.002 is excessive).

Lastly, I checked the headspace from both sides with a full moon clip and once fired brass. I came up with .012. This seems acceptable.

I am deferring to the vast knowledge base here for direction. Is this safe to fire? How would I remedy the situation if it is just heavy wear? I am mechanically inclined and very capable in most situations.

Thanks in advance!! For those who would suggest the search function, I have lurked for a bit before joining and the search bar would not work on my phone!

 

[daddio202]

I see you have not had much luck with getting response to your questions. I was just scouring my Kuhnhusen 5th edition S&W revolver shop manual for some answers for you. I can not find anywhere that they give in or out of specs. on endshake. More of ranges as all revolver variety sometimes greatly between years of mfgr. You can buy from several online gun parts companies endshake washers which are a pretty easy fix to tighten things up. But it sounds to me like your revolver has been shot plenty and is an older model and you are right at the max.specs but not out of spec. I personally trust the older revolvers by S&W a lot. As long as the cylinder locks up in place, and with a cleaning rod it feels like a smooth transition going from barrel to cylinder while cocked you will be fine to shoot it. Older guns that got used are going to have some movement in cylinder. As long as you have no hammer push off and the cylinder has minimal side to side movement while locked up- then I would go shoot it. Enjoy it as it was meant. midway USA and Numerich sell end shake washers in different thickness's if you want to tighten it up some. That is a fairly easy process you could look up if you wanted to. Hope this helps you out some.

 

[steelslaver]

That is a lot of end shake. When you checked head space was the cylinder pressed forward or to the rear. The endshake can be taken care of with shims, .008 worth. You do want some. But this will move the cylinder back leaving you with a rather large barrel to cylinder gap. The rear gauge or headspace is supposed to be held by the round center section of the ratchet.

But, before we go there does the yoke itself move forward and back any when closed?
This should be adjusted before anything else. This can be taken care of by replacing the yoke screw and peening the button a bit on the end of the yoke. Look where the tip of the screw rides in the groove that holds yoke in.If it is worn, LIGHTLY tapping or peening the end by wear will move it back a tiny bit and tighten it back up.

What is your headspace between empty cases in moon clip and recoil shield at top of frame with cylinder pressed to the rear? If it is .012 that is getting on the wide side of acceptable, but OK.

So, if that is the case and you install yoke shims you will end up with a fairly large B/C gap. To install the shims, just take the cylinder off the yoke by removing the rod, springs etc, drop shims inside center hole on cylinder and reinstall on yoke. The biggest effect will be more side blast and some velocity loss.Maybe 25fps per .001. The gap can be closed up. But it involves removing the barrel, taking .02777 off back of shoulder and reinstalling, then trimming the part that goes inside frame about .020, to get the gap to about .004-.005. The forcing cone would also have to be recut and the ejector rod tip trimmed back .0027. Lot of work or money for a shooter. I would shim out the endshake and shoot it that way. Well, I wouldn't but, I have the tools to fix it

 

[1917DA]

Daddio:
Thanks for your reply, and also for searching your manual. The cleaning rod check is a good idea, and I will try that on all bores.
I have heard of the endshake washers, but was concerned that while useful they may increase side blast.

Steelslaver:
That is what I thought. The yoke did indeed have some fore and aft movement. I tried your idea of opening the button of the yoke and the end of the screw. It worked like a charm, although I had to dress up the side of the button lightly with a fine diamond file. It fits tightly and is now remaining flush with the front of the frame, with no perceptible movement. Thanks for this great tip!!

I would like to avoid machining the barrel and ejector rod unless absolutely necessary. After adjusting the yoke and yoke screw, I rechecked my clearances.

Barrel to cylinder gap:
With cylinder pulled forward- .006
With cylinder pulled back- .016

Headspace (empty shells in moonclip):
With cylinder pulled back- .006
With cylinder pulled forward- .012

 

[StrawHat]

That’s a bit more barrel gap than I would like but is this something you will be shooting 1000 rounds a week?

Kevin

 

[1917DA]

That’s a bit more barrel gap than I would like but is this something you will be shooting 1000 rounds a week?

Kevin

Not likely given the current ammo situation!! I will use it for range sessions, etc. Just not for high volume shooting. I only have 50 full moon clips, that should slow me down enough.
On a related note, does anyone run hollow points or anything other than 230 grain ball ammo in their 1917s?

 

[tops]

I use 200 gr. SWC. I don't use any kind of clips. I pull the empties out with my finger nail and once in a blue moon a case will stick and I use the rim of another case to pry it out. I don't like to load and unload the clips. Larry

 

[StrawHat]

I run hardball and hardball equivalent loads. The rifling is shallow. A long time ago I determined I needed a harder alloy to make cast bullets work in the 1917. Okay, I read Keith and others and they said a harder alloy was needed. A long engraving plane on the bullet helps too. Turns out, proper fit is also a requirement! And with proper fit, a softer alloy is possible.

So, I found and like Lyman 452423, a 240 grain SWC designed for the 45 Auto Rim. Cast a bit hard and loaded over the standard hardball load of Bullseye it shot well from my revolver. Eventually, I got a 6 cavity mold for that and found it cast a couple thousandths larger. With a softer alloy and the larger bullet, no complaints! I also have SAECO 453, a 240 grain full WC. It too likes Bullseye but I do not recall the charge weight. The Lyman 454424 is also an accurate bullet in my 1917s.

Kevin

 

[steelslaver]

You can get some shims here.
S&W K L N Shim Kit

Easy to install. Sounds like you need about .008.