1917 Conflicting Answers!?

[Hoffa626]

Hello!
I have recently acquired, what i think, is a 1917 revolver.
I have spent the last 6 hours surfing forums and sites, trying to understand more about this gun, but seem to be running into many conflicting posts. So, I decided just to post what I have and see if i can get some answers. Hopefully someone will help me. My apologies in advance if these are insulting questions.

I have read that this revolver will only fire 45acp with moon clips or loose 45acp... is this true? Or is it made to fire 45 colt?

This was my grandfather's gun and was in a box with a ton of 45 colt ammo only.

Do i have to shoot cowboy loads in this gun since it has such a thin barrel wall? Or can i just shoot normal store box 45 loads from the gun shop?

What does it mean since it has the checkered stock grips?

What does the "S" before the serial number mean?

How old does this serial number date this firearm?

I understand that it was not a military issued weapon since the bottom of the barrel does not say so?

Thanks for your replies!
I will try to answer any questions asap!
here are my photos:

 

[BUFF]

Your gun is a bit of a mystery to me. From the serial number on the frame, the gun was made in 1960-1961. It would not be a true 1917, but would be the post-WWII, short action, commercial replacement for the 1917, called the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950.

The book SCS&W III dates your serial number to 1960-1961, but S&W dropped the top sideplate screw about 1956. Yours has that screw.

The gun should be chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge, which means it should also accept the .45 Auto Rim (a rimmed .45 ACP designed to eliminate the need for the clips. S&W made a small number of these chambered for the longer .45 Colt cartridge, but these are scarce. Sometimes, folks would modify the gun to accept the .45 Colt round. Done right, it requires a change of cylinder but yours looks like it is numbered to the gun (on the rear face) if I make out the numbers correctly.

Try inserting one of the .45 Colt cartridges in the cylinder. Report back to us if it chambers all the way in. The .45 Colt cartridge doesn't fit in a standard .45 ACP chamber.

If it does, get back to us.

S&W began giving their guns model numbers in 1957. The .45 H.E. became the Model 22 then. S&W stamped model numbers on the left side of the frame, just below where the barrel screws into the frame, inside the cut-out where the yoke goes. Open the cylinder and look for "MOD-22" or something similar.

Interesting gun.

 

[handejector]

Sorry, Buff- not correct.

This is one of the LAST Commercial 1917's made.
About 1000 were made in 46-47. They were numbered in the 1917 series with the S added. If still original, YES, it is chambered in 45 ACP.
It is the LONG action.
This batch of guns is strange. Some have the S, some don't. I believe all of them have the new, sliding hammer block.
It would have shipped with that type grips. If original, the serial number will be stamped inside the right grip.

 

[diamonback68]

Sorry, Buff- not correct.

This is one of the LAST Commercial 1917's made.
About 1000 were made in 46-47. They were numbered in the 1917 series with the S added. If still original, YES, it is chambered in 45 ACP.
It is the LONG action.
This batch of guns is strange. Some have the S, some don't. I believe all of them have the new, sliding hammer block.
It would have shipped with that type grips. If original, the serial number will be stamped inside the right grip.

Thanks Lee, that is about what I was thinking and/or believed, but couldn't figure a way to put it into the proper words.

 

[BUFF]

Well, that certainly explains the late date serial number with the older gun's features!

 

[murphydog]

Lee has it right on the ID. The .45 Colt should not fully seat in an unaltered chamber. If is it an unaltered gun, standard pressure .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ should work the best.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum, Hoffa626.

The "S" is part of the serial number and originally stood for "Safety". During WW II, a .38 special Victory model revolver fell to the deck of a ship and killed the sailor who was handling (or carrying) it. The .38 discharged and killed the sailor. S&W then developed the internal safety. The revolvers that had the safety added had the "S" added to the serial number, such as VS123456. Revolver frames that were built new with the safety were stamped such as SV768912.

When WW II ended and civilian prodution resumed, the "S" became part of the serial number. At first, both the K (medium) frames and the N (large) frames had the S as part of the serial number. In the late '40s, the K frames dropped the S prefix and it was reserved for the larger N frames.

 

[GLV]

Great job

I go to school every day on this forum thanks.

 

[Hoffa626]

I'm going to check the .45 colt ammo again, but I don't have it with me at the moment, but just to be sure, everyone did see that there is a "4" at the end of the serial number? It is a bit hard to make out. Thanks so much for the input so far! would any more specific photos be of additional help?

Also, is this an N Frame? i am a bit confused...

 

[Jack Flash]

Yes sir, that is an N-Frame.

I think most folks did see the entire s/n.

Would we like to see more pictures? That's like asking a drunk if you should go buy more beer!

 

[Alk8944]

Just a second to Lee's post. Per SCSW, there were 991 commercial versions of the1917 Army put up on pre-war frames from stock. They fell in the SN range of 209792-210782. They were built including the new style hammer-block safety. A prefix "S" was added to the serial number to indicate the new safety. There would be a duplicate SN on a 1960 or '61 N-Frame revolver, but not a 1917! This was in ca. 1946-1950.

As Lee said, the stocks are correct got this time period and you can verify this by looking for the serial number of the gun stamped inside the right stock.

Correct ammunition is .45 ACP with or without clips, and .45 Auto Rim. You can answer your curiosity about the .45 Colt very easily, just try to chamber one!

 

[Jack Flash]

Here is a quotation from a Roy Jinks (S&W Historian) letter about the Model of 1917:

"In October of 1947 the factory added the new style hammer block to this model. Handguns that incorporated this feature were marked with an S preceding the serial number. The S prefix was added at approximately serial number 210,321."

 

[Hoffa626]

Ok so... .45 Colt chambers fine.
I knew the ammo i had fit just fine, but i started second guessing myself because the ammo was old and unlabeled. So i went to a friends house who has a "Judge" and chambered .45 Colts perfectly. The extractor worked with the cardridges too. this is why I stand confused. I'll post photos.

 

[Hoffa626]

the serial number on the back of the cylinder matches the one on the butt... I included a photo

 

[Jack Flash]

Someone reamed out the chambers to .45 Colt length. Since .45 Colt cases have a rim, the extractor can perform its function.

You can see there is quite a gap between the back of the cylinder and the frame. This gap is meant to accomodate .45 ACP rounds in a clip ("moon clip"). If it had NOT been modified, .45 ACPs could also be fired without clips as there used to be a shoulder in each chamber for the mouth of the original cartridge to headspace on. You would just have to pick or poke the empties out as the extractor has nothing to engage on.

Since that shoulder is gone, you will have to use clips if you want to fire .45 ACP. (Or you will have to locate some .45 Auto Rim cartridges. These were designed in the 1920s specifically for the M1917. .45 AR rims have a very thick rim to properly headspace and to allow the extractor to do its job, eliminating the need for clips).

Personally, I would not shoot .45 Colts in it due to the excessive headspace.

 

[Pisgah]

While the .45 Colt may fit in the chamber and the cylinder may close, I can see from the photos that it does not fit very well at all. I believe I see brass in front of the rim, meaning that when it is fired the cartridge head is not going to be fully supported. Someone has bored the chambers out, leaving them just a bit too long in a jackleg attempt to eliminate excess headspace. Maybe I am over-cautious, but I would not fire .45 Colt in that gun. Stick to .45 ACP with clips, or .45 AutoRim.

 

[opoefc]

Pisgah is correct, as the photo shows the .45 Colt rounds not fully seating in the chambers. That is an accident waiting to happen if you get a ruptured case. Beware! Ed #15

 

[Hoffa626]

Thanks so much for the input! So does this mean that the revolver will be safe to shoot with 45acp even tho the cylinder has been bored out? Or is the stability of the gun compromised now?

 

[H Richard]

I was interested t see the most recent photo's, showing a "Flat" top. I have one of the Brazilian models made in 1946 on the old original round top, and wondered if the commercial ones were made on those same frames in 1946.

 

[BUFF]

I have a Colt New Service that is in the same situation as the S&W 1917 under discussion. It says "COLT DA 45" on the rear of the left side of the barrel, "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the bottom of the barrel. The bottom flat on the grip frme says "U.S." over "ARMY" over "MODEL" over "1917" above the lanyard swivel. Below the swivel it says "No" and then a blank space is unmarked, where perhaps a number was intended to go. What I believe to be the serial number is stamped on the frame, in the yoke cut-out, below the forcing cone, 276371. This series is repeated on the inside of the yoke, so when the cylinder is closed the numbers face each other. There is a prancing Colt on the left rear of the frame below the hammer.

The gun will accept and fire 6 .45 ACP jacketed ball rounds in moon clips.

The gun will also accept and fire 6 .45 Colt 255 grain lead round nose bullets with the flat tips. There is quite a bit of space between the breech face and the rear of the cartridge rims when they have slid all the way forward into the chambers until the rims stop them. Then, if you point the muzzle up, and the cartridges slide to the rear, until the top round is flat up against the breech face; about all of the bottom of the case that is not supported by the chamber walls is the rim and the extractor groove. The sides of the case walls, where solid and straight, are supported by the chamber walls.

I have shot this revolver with both W-W and Federal 230 grain jacketed round nose in full moon clips. I have also shot this revolver with W-W's traditional 255 grain conical lead bullet load with the flat tip. Both shoot and extract totally normally, with about equal accuracy. The brass looks normal, with no unexpected swelling in the case head area. This surprised me that it did this so well.

A close examination of the interiors of the chambers shows no signs of shallower .45 ACP chambers having been reamed deeper for the longer Colt rounds. The walls are very smooth. The step for the cylinder throat's reduced area looks completely normal and uniform.

It would appear that, in these two cases, someone desired to shoot .45 Colt in .45 ACP chambers and by deepening the chambers for the difference, were able to count on the firing pin to reach out far enough to overcome the difference in the headspace for each cartridge.

Interesting.