Deacon KC
Member
Just finished negotiating a trade for a 1917 [woot woot] and am waiting for it to get here. SN is 67700 and hoping somebody out there would know what year that would fall into. Thanks in advance, Kevin
1917 on it's way/Has Arrived!
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Deacon KC
Member
Just finished negotiating a trade for a 1917 [woot woot] and am waiting for it to get here. SN is 67700 and hoping somebody out there would know what year that would fall into. Thanks in advance, Kevin
John Deere
Member
I'm not one of the true experts like we have around here, but your S&W should be dated near June 1918 or so (mine's about 1,000 numbers earlier). Perhaps someone elase will chime in!
Hope you love it when it arrives!
JD
Hope you love it when it arrives!
JD
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Deacon KC
Member
Well, the note from the USPS was here today so I went and picked it up. always fun opening those boxes, and I found a very nicely refinished 1917 in there. Very tight mechanically with some light pitting under the reblue. Good bore and cylinder, but the US Army markings on the butt were removed, however the barrel inscription and Inspector's mark are still there. Only marking under the grip on the right side is a small M or W.
cgt4570
Member
I would be concerned with the lack of serial number on the frame! It looks like it was removed when the Govt markings were polished off.
Aside from that, it should make a fine, fun shooter.
Chris
Aside from that, it should make a fine, fun shooter.
Chris
npd136
Member
I agree with the lack of the serial number on the frame. You might want to check your local laws on such things. In my state it is a crime to possess a gun that has had the serial number removed.
Illinois has a tougher than most law in that they place the removal/obliteration of ANY manufacturers markings (maker, model, ID numbers,etc) in the same class as a serial number removal/obliteration alone. Both the act of doing so and the possession of the defaced firearm. I personally wouldn't mess with that one. Just a big problem waiting to happen IMO.
***********
(720 ILCS 5/24-5)
Sec. 24-5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's number or other mark of identification of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated
shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.
***********
(720 ILCS 5/24-5)
Sec. 24-5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's number or other mark of identification of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated
shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.
Hi, I think that often times, due to confusion, the assembly number(s), mainly that on the frame (behind the crane) is an acceptable identification. The US Army number was keyed (supposedly) to the serial production number and any other numbers were "assembly numbers". I'm pretty sure that my FFL guy used the number behind the crane when he documented my purchase of my M1917 S&W. The US Army number should also appear on the rear of the cylinder, the back of the extractor, the crane arm (visible through one of the charge holes or if you remove the cylinder)as well as on the underside of the barrel when the cylinder is swung out. Often times the US property mark (s) were ground off by Joe as the weapon was "liberated" from government stocks or just for cosmetic purposes. A different number on the underside of the barrel can indicate arsenal rebarreling. Check with your FFL guy and see what he recorded. Regards, Ray
npd136
Member
The question has to be is where is the primary location of the factory assigned serial number. On the older guns, it's the bottom of the grip frame. It does not matter that the same number is on the cylinder, barrel, ect. as that is not considered the "reciever" of the firearm. The other parts can be replaced. If the primary number has been altered/removed, then possession is a violation. It is best to consult with the BATFE and have the number restamped if nessesary.
OP
Deacon KC
Member
This has been an enlightening conversation, especially as I have a C&R license and am not about to endanger it. So today I called a dealer who I have used for many years, who also deals heavily with surplus arms and asked if he had dealt with this before. In the past, ATFE has accepted the number stamped on the receiver, under the crane if the other is damaged or removed, as it is still on the frame. I also know a couple of ATFE investigators and am calling them Monday just to make sure that is accepted, and going to get a letter in writing. The receiver number is 34640, anybody got an idea on the build date?
digi-shots
Member
Deacon,
Is that a small 'eagle head' on the left side of the frame, just behind the trigger?
Starting in late May 1918, the 'eagle head' and inspector number was used to show final inspection.
Is that a small 'eagle head' on the left side of the frame, just behind the trigger?
Starting in late May 1918, the 'eagle head' and inspector number was used to show final inspection.
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Deacon KC
Member
Linda, you have great eyes! Yes it is an eagle.
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Deacon KC
Member
Steve, yup that is the number I am referring to. Apparently ATFE has used that number for transfers, etc, when the sn is gone.
powerkicker
Member
I'd leave well enough alone. What year did serial numbers become mandatory?
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Any gun with the serial removed is illegal under federal law. The ATF may allow the number to be re-stamped if it can be determined what the correct number is for the gun. Is the serial stamped on the barrel and cylinder as is the case with other old S&Ws? If so, that number could be re-stamped on the frame. If the correct serial is not on the gun someplace the ATF would likely declare it as contraband and confiscate it for melting.
You can say nothing, of course, and who would know unless you sell the gun and a dealer wonders where the number went.
powerkicker- Serial numbers are required as of 1968 but even an older gun cannot have the number removed if it had one.
You can say nothing, of course, and who would know unless you sell the gun and a dealer wonders where the number went.
powerkicker- Serial numbers are required as of 1968 but even an older gun cannot have the number removed if it had one.
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Deacon KC
Member
Yup, that is why I'm having it followed up. I'm not going to hang myself for something so minor that could become major.
Serial numbers were required long before the GCA68 I believe, though not on all firearms mfg in the USA. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 first prohibited the alteration, removal or obliteration of a manufacturers ser# as a Federal offense, but I'm not sure if that particular law was first to require ser#'s (firearms identification number) on guns mfg in the USA. Up till '68, ca.22rf long guns and all shotguns were not required to have ser#'s but alot of mfg's did number them. After GCA68, all firearms mfg'd and imported into the USA were required to be #'d. FFA'38 first established the FFL system also.
It wasn't uncommon for US custom makers in the preWW1 to mid 1930's period to grind off the markings including the serial number of rifles being customized if the markings were in a spot not suitable to the builders wishes. Griffin&Howe and others even advertised that this would be done. They sometimes did add their own 'in house' number but they were not manufacturers and the number was only a sequence or assembly number. That practice of removal seems to have stopped right around 1938.
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DeaconKC..Hope you do make out OK with the 1917..keep us posted
It wasn't uncommon for US custom makers in the preWW1 to mid 1930's period to grind off the markings including the serial number of rifles being customized if the markings were in a spot not suitable to the builders wishes. Griffin&Howe and others even advertised that this would be done. They sometimes did add their own 'in house' number but they were not manufacturers and the number was only a sequence or assembly number. That practice of removal seems to have stopped right around 1938.
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DeaconKC..Hope you do make out OK with the 1917..keep us posted
Stophel
Member
You've already got the gun, asking everyone if it is "legal"....ESPECIALLY asking someone in the ATF is just stirring up a hornets nest. Keep it and be happy. No one needs to know anything about the serial number.
+1 npd136
DeaconKC,
It appears that the frame serial numbers have been removed. Can you make out the numbers on the butt of the gun? The frame serial numbers are the ones that matter under Federal law and possession of a gun with the numbers obliterated is a felony. Why would you consider keeping it?
Even if you can make out the butt numbers, the gun is pitted and has been poorly reblued. It's definitely not an arsenal refinish. There's a big chunk missing from the left stock. The upper side plate screw is gone and it appears that the trigger has been blued. I'd return the gun pronto.
OP
Deacon KC
Member
The seller has still not returned my call. Hopefully he will today. If not, it goes back tomorrow.
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