1st model Russian value sought

[Ballarat]

Gday all,
Have just joined this forum on the advice of a friend in Canada.
I have recently come into possesion of a Model no.3 American, Russian 1st model. The piece is in 98/99% condition, unfired. Blued, has not been refurbished. Is as tight as the day it left the factory in 1872. I shall be sending a request to Mr Roy Jinks as to when shipped etc. The piece carries serial numbers instead of assy numbers on all the major parts. Most Russians had pointed tipped triggers, this one has flat tipped trigger. Correct according to Charles Pate. Some very slight scratches on the sideplate, normal ware on the muzzle where it has been placed and picked-up from a hard surface. Serial is 14XXX. Right grip is stamped on the inside with the correct serial number. Frame is turning to a plum coloured patinna along with the cylinder and displaying colours due to atmospheric exposure, the barrel assy is holding the blue, but is turning slowly. Different steel makeup I guess.
Hammer and trigger guard still display good case colours although somewhat faded. Bore and cylinders in excellent condition, very slight pitting in the bore
though rifling is sharp and bore shiny and smooth.
What would be a fair price for this piece.

Rgds

 

[Modelof1891]

Ballarat,
Good to have you here. Pictures help a great deal when estimates are guessed.

 

[Ballarat]

Gday all , will try to get a couple of photos up on the sight of the 1st model Russian. Very new at this so bare with me.

Looks like it all got there, phew!!! Enjoy the photos.

 

[Ballarat]

Ballarat,
Good to have you here. Pictures help a great deal when estimates are guessed.

Got some pictures up sir. If other angles are required let me know and will try my best to satisfy. Full serial number of the piece is 14308. Believe it was the first run of 1872. Barrel rib carries the usual markings in English followed by RUSSIAN MODEL.

 

[deadin]

That gun appears to be in almost too nice a condition.
I'm afraid that it will need a hands on inspection by an expert before you can get an realistic evaluation.
Some extreme close-ups of the seam around the sideplate, various screw and pin heads and various edges might help.

What I'm trying to say is that anytime I see a gun that old and in that kind of condition, I immediately think "refinish" or "restoration". There are some 'smiths that can do this to the degree that it will take an expert that is intimately familiar with these early models to detect it. (If even then.)

I think the above is why you aren't getting much traffic on your question. Nobody is willing to go out on a limb and offer an opinion without actually seeing the gun.

Good luck. If it turns out to be correct you have a very valuable piece.

 

[opoefc]

Dean's comments are good. I seldom see this type of gun in original condition that you are describing, so I would have to have the gun in my hands for a complete teardown and inspection to give an opinion that the gun is completely original. One thing you can look for, is to remove the stocks and tell us what stamps, numbers, marks appear on the grip frame on both sides. Often on guns with this appearance, you will see a S&W factory rework date code, with or without a small star stamp, which then tells you the gun was refinished by the factory ages ago, using the original processes to reblue parts, which can result in the different colors on different parts due to chemical reactions with different metals. Old time reworks and reblues were done at skill levels that can almost defy detection, especially if the gun had no pits or scratches and did not need much polishing to refinish, but the new work was often stamped with the finishers/assemblers work stamps, as well as the original assembly stamps, so the dual stampings tell you the gun has been redone. As Dean said, you have a valuable gun, refinished or not, but a collector willing to pay into 5 figures for it will want an expert opinion, unless they are recognized as expert enough to verify the gun to a sucessor owner down the line. Ed.

 

[Ballarat]

Thanks Dean and opoefc for your info. Will post another photo of the sideplate which may be of some assistance. Took the grips off, there are no markings under them on the frame, butt only is stamped with serial number, right grip also carries the serial number. The barrel rib lettering is crisp and sharp, the blue is fading on the rib top. Will have to locate someone in Australia to do a verification. The photo below has the piece in half cock, the spots you may see are fine rain spots, it was just coming onto rain when I took that shot.

Thanks again.

 

[deadin]

I don't know.... that sideplate line is a little more pronounced than I would like. (It should be almost invisible). Also, is it just a trick of the lighting or is there a dip in the left grip panel just around the escutcheon?

I will say that if it is a refinish, it's a darn good one.

Ed??????

 

[Ballarat]

Gday Dean,
Many thanks your reply. Tomorrow the piece is being appraised by a local person with over 40 years as a restorer appraiser gunsmith and armourer, he is well thought of in Queensland. Have also been in contact with the Australian importer of S&W products, still awaiting their return call, asked them to recommend an appraiser to view the piece. The sideplate is a difficult one, light and angle seems to change its fit, I will say the edges are not bevelled and depending how you view it, it is a close level fit. Straight forward of the escutcheon there is a slight narrow dip in the grip for about 7mm before returning to the normal profile, this looks like a slight flaw during manufacture possibly, the grip has not been overtightened. I am open to suggestions, photo looks as if the whole escutcheon has pulled the grip in, this is not the case, grips are rock hard and not soft in this area. All will be revealed tomorrow, I still have some big antique arms auction people to contact for further appraisals. I want to know the truth about this gun myself. Even if it has been refinished I still think I am priveliged to own such a piece. Will post all the results as they come in, stay tuned. Once again thanks your info and appreciate your interest in the piece.

Rgds
Bob

 

[Ballarat]

Morning all,
The piece has been viewed and inspected by two valuers/antique arms experts, will be getting another opinion from one of Australias leading collectors of S&W top break revolvers, have not been able to contact him as yet, but believe he will be attending a local gunshow this coming weekend, my piece will be on display there.
The advice received is that it has not been refurbished. Thanks to all who replied to my query. She is a grand old sixgun which I shall treasure. It is not for sale.
Value estimate A$15000 or more at auction.

 

[1891SingleShot]

WOW!!! That is one fine revolver and all original to boot. I would bet that $15,000 would be on the low end of value.

 

[da gimp]

the thing that is putting some of us off

is the plum coloring on parts of your S&W Mod 3 which often shows up on Winchester model 42 .410's when they have been reblued @ an incorrect temp.The fitting of the sideplate should be able to be seen by your eye, but barely felt by a fingernail.

Congrats on your find regardless. I would suggest an "in the hands" appraisal from Jim Supica or someone of his experience.


I hope it works out for you, but I've never seen a two tone firearm that didn't ring alarm bells for me.

again, best wishes, and she is pretty, but," buy the gun, not the story" is an adage often heard @ Missouri gunshows.

da gimp

OFC, Mo. Chapter

NRA Life/Endowment

 

[singleshot1891]

I agree with da gimp. That duo-tone blueing puts up all kinds of red flags for me. If it were mine, I'd have it either confirmed or denied as original by the best sources available (which it sounds like your doing). It will mean the difference between (as you know) a $15,000+ pistol or a $1500 restoration.
The more I look at the posted pics the more skeptical I am.......

Good luck.

 

[Ballarat]

The piece has been pulled down, the interior surface of the sideplate plus the interior of the recess has been examined, there are rough machine markings to the interior surfaces, but they carry the same blue as the barrel assy. The same blue also is found under the grip on the front and rear interior of the grip frame and then up into the hammer recess. The grip lugs also carry this same blue. Some slight pitting on the grip frame under the wood panels. Blue does not carry into the slight pitting of the grip frame or barrel. The rough finish to me carrying blue is a surprise, did not think blueing took to a roughish finish, anyone any ideas? Have managed to contact the S&W collector, he will be taking the piece for examination in the next week or so. Will post his findings. The bearing surfaces of the grip frame does carry a little of the blue, especially at the heel upper transverse and outer surfaces both sides. Thats about all I can tell you at this time gents. Oh yeh, the frame under the cylinder also carries some blue but faded along with the recoil shield area supporting blue but fading to plum. The grip frame externals where the piece has been handled/gripped is running to an silvery hue. The barrel in areas is also going the same way.

 

[da gimp]

let Jim Supica or Roy Jinks do a hands on inspection

the 2 tone plum coloring , together with the what appears to be a blued hammer & trigger, the pronounced sideplate line , all are ringing bells for me.Again I have never seen a two tone S&W model 3 before, nickled yes, gold plated yes, 2 tone blue/plum, nope.

I wish you very good luck on this piece, & hope it proves out for you as original.

Some of the guys that post here know a few of the Aussie boys that are expert in antique firearms, who did you show it to? Name, address etc. In other words are they a recognised expert in this field?

Please post pix of the top of the barrel & of the serial #'s areas, several of us would like to see them, a re-blue polish often shows up glaringly in good pix of these areas.

Again , as it stands, I'd be willing to say it is probably a vg to exc restoration. & Congrats on picking up a nice old piece.

Please have Roy Jinks, or Jim Supica or someone of their experience do a hands on exam, it would help you in your case considerably..And I would not expect either of these guys to do an exam for free either, but it would help the providence of this piece, is it a $15,000 original or a $750 refinished shooter?


good luck sir,

da gimp

OFC, Mo. Chapter

NRA Life/Endowment

 

[opoefc]

That's a very nice revolver , but it's an older refinish, in my opinion. Did you get a factory letter to see where the gun was shipped? When you post the up close pics of the stampings, etc. , also please post a pic of the muzzle and the frame lugs that the latch fits over. How they are finished is definitive clue as to whether the gun has been reblued. Are the assembly numbers matching and clearly stamped? The gouge in the left grip appears to have been repaired at some time in the past, probably when the gun was refinished, as those grips would have never left the factory with a defect like that. Still, it's a nice example of the model, but it would have to be disclosed as a refinish if offered for sale or auction. Ed.

 

[Ballarat]

da gimp, Gday to you sir,

If you or your friends have any contact details for persons in Australia who are capable of doing a fine analysis on the gun I would appreciate their contact details as I am having a devil of a job trying to find three people to do that job I require. Please send me a PM thanks.
I contacted the S&W agents inSydney, they were unable to assist me. I contacted the principal of Australian antique arms auctions in Melbourne, a Mr Roland Martyn, he advised me to seek out a gent by the name of Geoff Lyons an authority on historical firearms which I have done. He also advised me to contact another gent Terry Rauchle who has done evaluations for Mr Martyn, I shall be contacting him within a few days, presently working 12 hour nightshifts all this week and 12 hour days next week, so have to fit it in with my 8 day break coming up after dayshifts.
I would love to send the gun to experts in the States, however the hassle exporting then returning the gun to Australia is a nightmare.
As before if you know anyone please forward details.

Regards.

 

[da gimp]

you might call Jim Supica@ the NRA national firearms Museum

he recently sold his antique firearms company, The ArmChairGunShow and took over that museum.
or contact Roy Jinks through the S&W collectors org.




The ArmchairGunshow is still in business, the guys who Jim sold to are equally knowledgeable, and run many high dollar auctions, both here in the USA & internationally. They ought to have someone in Australia tht is an expert & who is above reproach. their website is the name of their business.

Again post pix of the top of the barrel & of the serial #'s.

Good luck to you sir, I hope it proves out for you.

da gimp
Old Farts Club, Missouri Chapter

NRA Life/Endowment member

 

[Ballarat]

da gimp,
Many thanks your info, will post pics as requested when get time if my old camera is up to good close-ups, stay tuned. Will try this weekend.

Rgds
Another old fart

 

[Ballarat]

That's a very nice revolver , but it's an older refinish, in my opinion. Did you get a factory letter to see where the gun was shipped? When you post the up close pics of the stampings, etc. , also please post a pic of the muzzle and the frame lugs that the latch fits over. How they are finished is definitive clue as to whether the gun has been reblued. Are the assembly numbers matching and clearly stamped? The gouge in the left grip appears to have been repaired at some time in the past, probably when the gun was refinished, as those grips would have never left the factory with a defect like that. Still, it's a nice example of the model, but it would have to be disclosed as a refinish if offered for sale or auction. Ed.

Gday Sir,
Have not as yet contacted Roy Jinks regarding a letter, I shall do so, more interested at the present time in confirming the pieces bonafides. There are no assy numbers on the piece as per my first post, serial numbers only on the major assemblies i.e. barrel, cylinder and frame, the latch carries a number 8783 could that be an assy number? Its the only number that differs from the serial numbers. It appears no where else. Will endeavour to post pics shortly. The number on the barrel assy has been stamped quite hard and around each number the metal is slightly raised, will be impossible to take a pic of this very small area. The blue has gone right into the numbers.
da gimp as you will see has given me some contacts to try.

Thanks your reply
Rgds