21 foot rule comments

[Wyatt Earp]

I attended a defensive handgun class yesterday. One of the drills involved a humanoid target mounted on a wheeled trolley. You stood slightly off sides to it, facing the target 21 feet away from you. Without warning, another student (behind you and our of your sight) would take off running with a rope attached to the moving target. As soon as you perceived motion you were to draw from concealment and engage.

Quite an eye opener to say the least. First off, it was about 35 degrees and very windy all day yesterday, so we were all bundled up. So that slowed the draw a little. Even so, on average, two to three shots were all one had time to get into the target before it was all over you. Also, the suddenness of the event meant that instinctive shooting was the way to go. Whether one or two handed, looking for the sights when someone is rushing you is a huge waste of time that spots too much time to your adversary. Only the fastest, cleanest draws had time to get more than three shots in.

Lessons learned:

1) If someone with the means, motive, and opportunity to cause death or severe injury is within 21 feet, you need to be doing two things: a) creating more distance and/or cover for yourself, and b) getting your hand on the gun even before the rush begins. Whether to keep the weapon holstered or draw to low ready is up to each individual decision and situation, but I firmly believe that in this situatiation, at the very least the concealment needs to be broken, the hand must acquire a firing grip, and a fighthing stance must be adopted. Doing less puts you dangerously behind the curve.

2) When rushed, MOVE. DO NOT stand and deliver. You will almost certainly get shot, stabbed, or hit by a blunt impact weapon if you stand and deliver. Moving sideways or on a diagonal IN AN EXPLOSIVE MANNER while deliving fire is a must. Watch a fencer explode in a lunge with his weapon and you will get the idea.

I am glad Suarez International teaches rapid, explosive movement off the line while firing with a one-handed grip. Probably the most useful tool in my box and one skill I practice the most.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

I attended a defensive handgun class yesterday. One of the drills involved a humanoid target mounted on a wheeled trolley. You stood slightly off sides to it, facing the target 21 feet away from you. Without warning, another student (behind you and our of your sight) would take off running with a rope attached to the moving target. As soon as you perceived motion you were to draw from concealment and engage.

Quite an eye opener to say the least. First off, it was about 35 degrees and very windy all day yesterday, so we were all bundled up. So that slowed the draw a little. Even so, on average, two to three shots were all one had time to get into the target before it was all over you. Also, the suddenness of the event meant that instinctive shooting was the way to go. Whether one or two handed, looking for the sights when someone is rushing you is a huge waste of time that spots too much time to your adversary. Only the fastest, cleanest draws had time to get more than three shots in.

Lessons learned:

1) If someone with the means, motive, and opportunity to cause death or severe injury is within 21 feet, you need to be doing two things: a) creating more distance and/or cover for yourself, and b) getting your hand on the gun even before the rush begins. Whether to keep the weapon holstered or draw to low ready is up to each individual decision and situation, but I firmly believe that in this situatiation, at the very least the concealment needs to be broken, the hand must acquire a firing grip, and a fighthing stance must be adopted. Doing less puts you dangerously behind the curve.

2) When rushed, MOVE. DO NOT stand and deliver. You will almost certainly get shot, stabbed, or hit by a blunt impact weapon if you stand and deliver. Moving sideways or on a diagonal IN AN EXPLOSIVE MANNER while deliving fire is a must. Watch a fencer explode in a lunge with his weapon and you will get the idea.

I am glad Suarez International teaches rapid, explosive movement off the line while firing with a one-handed grip. Probably the most useful tool in my box and one skill I practice the most.

 

[ispcapt]

Tueller Drill named after the guy who came up with it, Dennis Tueller. LEOs have been training Tueller for many years.
The purpose of the drill has been tainted over the years by people who don't understand what the point of it is. Many people, including some instructors who teach it, use it as an example that 21 ft is the "safe distance". That's not the intent of the drill at all nor is that what it shows. The intent was to show that even when someone is 21 ft away, which is considerably farther than conversation distance and which many people think is safe, that someone at that distance is very capapble of rushing you and inflicting damage before you have a chance to react. Remember - when you were playing the drill, even tho you didn't know the exact moment the attacker was going to move, you knew that at some point, usually within the next few seconds, that the attacker was going to come at you. And when the attacker began to move you already knew what your were going to do. Therefore you really aren't in the decision making mode. Decisions had already been made. Even before the attacker moves you have already identified the threat and have pre-made the decision how you are going to react. On the street the decisions aren't pre-made and will happen a lot quicker.
The Tueller Drill isn't about 21 ft being a safe distance. Even if you can get off a shot it will be hurried and highly unlikely it will cause an immediate stop. That means if the attacker is armed with a knife, if you stand your ground, you're going to be cut.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by ispcapt:
Tueller Drill named after the guy who came up with it, Dennis Tueller. LEOs have been training Tueller for many years.
The purpose of the drill has been tainted over the years by people who don't understand what the point of it is. Many people, including some instructors who teach it, use it as an example that 21 ft is the "safe distance". That's not the intent of the drill at all nor is that what it shows. The intent was to show that even when someone is 21 ft away, which is considerably farther than conversation distance and which many people think is safe, that someone at that distance is very capapble of rushing you and inflicting damage before you have a chance to react.

Agreed. That was precisely the point the drill I participated in drove home.

Originally posted by ispcapt:
Remember - when you were playing the drill, even tho you didn't know the exact moment the attacker was going to move, you knew that at some point, usually within the next few seconds, that the attacker was going to come at you. And when the attacker began to move you already knew what your were going to do. Therefore you really aren't in the decision making mode. Decisions had already been made. Even before the attacker moves you have already identified the threat and have pre-made the decision how you are going to react. On the street the decisions aren't pre-made and will happen a lot quicker.

True, but in the context of yesterday's training those limitations had to be accepted. A much closer approximation is force-on-force training.

Originally posted by ispcapt:
The Tueller Drill isn't about 21 ft being a safe distance. Even if you can get off a shot it will be hurried and highly unlikely it will cause an immediate stop. That means if the attacker is armed with a knife, if you stand your ground, you're going to be cut.

That was our collective take-away as well.

 

[Spotteddog]

Wyatt,
Anyone doubting it, should check out the "dead snake" thread in the Lounge!

 

[flop-shank]

That drill demonstrates why I'm a big proponent of having a gun in a front pants pocket all the time if possible. If a situation causes concern it's easy to nonchalantly slip a hand onto a pocketed gun. This also means you have already completed the part of the draw that is usually the slowest and clumsiest, aquiring the gun. Not only can a pocketed gun catch a criminal off guard because of a lightning quick draw, but turning and facing a perp right before they act will allow you to show them that they're about to get shot without you having to draw a gun. If time and circumstances allow, I'll go for the .44 magnum in my waistband, but sometimes a snubby or P3AT are the better, faster option.

 

[fiasconva]

And you still see individuals who insist that carrying without one in the chamber poses no problem. I'd liked to have seen them do that drill when they had to rack the slide first.

 

[Big Foot]

the suddenness of the event meant that instinctive shooting was the way to go. Whether one or two handed, looking for the sights when someone is rushing you is a huge waste of time that spots too much time to your adversary.

I agree. I almost fell out of my chair where on one of the Guns/Ammo TV program, the instructor from GunSite is showing Michael Bane bring up a two-hand sight at 3 FEET! TOO LATE!

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by Big Foot:
I almost fell out of my chair where on one of the Guns/Ammo TV program, the instructor from GunSite is showing Michael Bane bring up a two-hand sight at 3 FEET! TOO LATE!

Gunsite, Front Sight, and all those slaves of sighted fire are a waste of money.

There is a time and place for sighted fire, but when being bum rushed ain't it.

 

[GatorFarmer]

As I've mentioned before, this was something that we played around with when I was in college. We used rolled up newspapers and dart guns as well as dry fire excercises. The worst thing to do if the knifeman charges is to stand there like a deer in the headlights, but that's what a great many will do. Even concentrating on drawing a firearm might or might not be the right answer. Some schools of combatives will teach delivering a physical blow or gaining control of the knife. Jumping, throwing chairs, basically thinking outside of the box might be useful.

Of course if you're having the sort of day where someone is charging you with a knife or axe for no particular reason out of the blue, it's a bad day to begin with, and you might well die anyway, since they might be smart enough to start the charge while your back is turned...

 

[Guest]

Move away and attempt to draw and fire. It's about the only chance you have against either a knife or 'other' non-firing weapon.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

If you are small of stature - like I am, and if you are handicapped - like I am, and if you want to stay safe and unharmed - like I do, you need to develop radar like a bat, and not be afraid to do whatever it takes to survive. I've had more than a few incidents where I was able to stare down a threat while unarmed because "they" knew that if need be, I would "dance" with them. I now carry legally at every opportunity as I am unable to run from a threat, nor fight my way out of one. Front pocket carry for my primary and secondary is my rule of thumb with a very sharp folding knife behind my hip for the "Custer's Last Stand" moment. By coincidence, 7 yards is about as far as I can see to shoot without my glasses - I'm also horribly near-sighted. Thus, 21 feet is a bare minimum for me.

Regards,

Dave

 

[uncle norman]

Originally posted by Double-O-Dave:
If you are small of stature - like I am, and if you are handicapped - like I am, and if you want to stay safe and unharmed - like I do, you need to develop radar like a bat, and not be afraid to do whatever it takes to survive. I've had more than a few incidents where I was able to stare down a threat while unarmed because "they" knew that if need be, I would "dance" with them. I now carry legally at every opportunity as I am unable to run from a threat, nor fight my way out of one. Front pocket carry for my primary and secondary is my rule of thumb with a very sharp folding knife behind my hip for the "Custer's Last Stand" moment. By coincidence, 7 yards is about as far as I can see to shoot without my glasses - I'm also horribly near-sighted. Thus, 21 feet is a bare minimum for me.

Regards,

Dave

Dang, Dave! By chance your nickname isn't "Lucky" is it?

 

[akviper]

I wasted my money at Gunsite and spent a half day working the Tueller drill. I don't recall being told to stand my ground or to use sighted slow fire. You might want to actually attend a class there before you slam them. Believe it or not they are not still stuck in the 1970s.

They have a great remote control life size dummy that charges from various distances and directions. You are taught to move and fire as quickly as possible. If the dummy is close most people naturally point shoot. Several hours were spent shooting with lateral, forward, and backward movement. If the attacker is too close you will need to resort to empty hand defensive techniques as attempting to draw will probably result major damage to you unless you are Bob Lunden or Bill Jordan. The DVD "Surviving Edged Weapons" graphically illustrates what can happen if you waste time trying to draw your firearm when attacked at close range.

I attended one to two "big name" schools each year when I was lead instructor for my agency. None of them were perfect in my opinion but I learned something from each I attended. I resisted the one and only way training philosophy as I never found the shooter's messiah. I lived long enough and was into survival shooting for enough years to see the fads come and go and then appear several years later as training gospel (point shooting for one).

The bottom line is a person who shoots regularly and spends hard earned bucks to attend any reputable school has a much greater chance of survival if attacked.

 

[RobO]

My first experience learning about the 21 feet rule was 11 years ago in the police academy. We had a hard core Defensive Tactics instructor who joined us in the gym. We had on white t-shirts. He had a rubber knife, with lipstick along the edges. What a very colorful experience that was!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Not sure who is historically correct, but I never learned a 21-foot rule. I learned a Tueller DRILL, which is a simple experiment, usually conducted from 21 feet. I was taught that one should find out the average time it took to stab or seriously slice a person from 21 feet, and compare it to the time it took to draw and successfully fire your gun from wherever you customarily carried it. I learned that if one could do that in 1.5 seconds, which is fairly fast, one would often put a bullet in the attacker before getting sliced up, and occasionally not. I guess it mainly taught me to MOVE. It also taught me a fairly simple experiment that any jury possessed of a stopwatch could replicate in the jury room, the kind of experiment that my lawyer could ask them to perform if there arose some question about the propriety of my <STRIKE>killing</STRIKE> stopping an attacker.

The main thing that I learned, aside from moving and drawing, is that a gun does NOT trump a knife unless you know how and when to use it. A knife attack can be very serious, depending mostly on what the other guy knows, and very little on what you are carrying.

 

[flop-shank]

If you ever watch one of Cold Steel's videos demonstrating their knives (which are **** BTW) being used, you will see how fearsome knives really are. There was a young man killed in a gang fight in my locale about 15 years ago. From what I gathered, he was disemboweled and had a punctured aorta. A slash and a stab under the left arm and he was done. I got the distinct impression that the stabber knew exactly what he was doing. Since the stabbee was part of a home invasion team, the guy with the knife was not charged.

 

[Lt JL]

mOVE, mOVE, mOVE! even if you do get a round into the slasher, he ain't gonna drop dead at your feet. You are going to get cut. Keep shooting and moving until the threat is neutralized, which is PC for the guy is dead. John

 

[GC]

I've been informed the 21' distance has since been pushed back to 30' with the advent of LE security holsters becoming common issue for the cops. Security holsters slow the draw enough the distance has been adjusted to accommodate the slower draw times from duty holsters. I would think that could also apply to CCW use when dressed in winter garb. Regardless, it pays to be ever vigilant.

 

[Pioneer461]

Learning and adhereing to the 21 foot rule, saved my life 14 years, 3 months and 3 days ago. Twenty-one feet should be the very minimum.