21 foot rule comments

[Doug M.]

Originally posted by GC:
I've been informed the 21' distance has since been pushed back to 30' with the advent of LE security holsters becoming common issue for the cops. Security holsters slow the draw enough the distance has been adjusted to accommodate the slower draw times from duty holsters. I would think that could also apply to CCW use when dressed in winter garb. Regardless, it pays to be ever vigilant.

*
You may be right about cold weather and concealed sidearms. You have been misinformed about the security holsters. If one uses a quality holster and TRAINS WITH IT, there is no measurable loss of speed over any other duty holster. The increased distance recommendations of which I aware are based on additional research, training and experience, as are lateral movement, etc. I've seen an agency's in-house films which showed an assailant starting at 35 feet and being able to deliver an effective contact weapon attack.

 

[Oscar Zulu]

Does anyone know why it is 21 feet? I have heard that is how wide the room was when they set up the camera. A bit farther would be more realistic I believe. FWIW
OZ

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally posted by Oscar Zulu:
Does anyone know why it is 21 feet? I have heard that is how wide the room was when they set up the camera. A bit farther would be more realistic I believe. FWIW
OZ

I agree. You need to run the drill yourself, and compare the results to how fast YOU can get a gun out and score with it. It is certainly more than 21 ft for me, and I know that I need to be moving while emptying my gun into the assailant, if I am lucky enough to be able to. Unfortunately, most knife attacks aren't announced from 21 ft. A fair number may not be announced at all.

I just don't understand why the BG's don't play by the rules.

 

[Frank V]

Watching the film edged weapon is really scary! It shows just how unprepaired most of us are for a quick,unwarnde,armed attack. It's scary how fast someone who knows beforehand he is going to move & you do not can cover 21'.
Since viewing that film when on duty, I'd try to secretly undo the safety device on my holster & creat space. Now retired, I casually unbutton or unzip jackets & vests & creat space. Moving lateraly is a huge help, an attacker will have to chase you two directions while giving you time to draw. Thanks Frank

 

[sargespd]

I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis Tueller at a class put on by Action Target some years ago. The 21 foot distance was based on starting the drill from closer distances and working back, till a minimum was established for the drill. A very bare minimum, never meant to be a hard, fast, line for any purpose at all. Just meant to show that if you were any closer than that, you better be prepared to use something other than your holstered weapon to defend yourself while moving away.

 

[SG-688]

21 Ft = 7 yd line on common police range.

The original article is in the March, 1983 SWAT.

"So, what is the answer — just how close is too close?
Consider this. How long does it take for you to draw your handgun and place two center hits on a man-size target at seven yards? Those of us who have learned and practiced proper pistolcraft techniques would say that a time of about one and one-half seconds is acceptable for that drill.
With that in mind, let's consider what might be called the "Danger Zone" if you are confronted by an adversary armed with an edged or blunt weapon. At what distance does this adversary enter your Danger Zone and become a lethal threat to you?
We have done some testing along those lines recently and have found that an average healthy adult male can cover the traditional seven yard distance in a time of (you guessed it) about one and one-half seconds. It would be safe to say then that an armed attacker at 21 feet is well within your Danger Zone."

 

[badguybuster]

I used to teach defensive tactics and we used the 21 feet rule. The key is not too be fast on the draw. It is too be able to create more space. Except during warm weather or open carry, it is extremely difficult to beat someone with in that distance, especially if they are experienced at what they are doing. You should remember though, most physical combat encounters occur within "7" feet. So learn to use your hands and feet to create space. A good program is called, "Getting beyond the blade." It is designed for knife assaults but can be rolled over to blunts objects and hands as well.

 

[Mediumbore]

The Tueller drill taught me that, if someone is that close draw, I don't care what they are doing. Get Rosco out and start giving commands as you cast about for cover. Someone at that distance with a weapon, charging or just standing there is an immediate threat and needs to be addressed. I teach my officers that they should be at a high ready so that at the first forward twitch they engage.

 

[badguybuster]

Amen to that.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I wonder how many posters here can draw from concealment and hit in 1.5 seconds. I know I can't, or haven't.

 

[Pointman_FL]

Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:
Gunsite, Front Sight, and all those slaves of sighted fire are a waste of money....There is a time and place for sighted fire, but when being bum rushed ain't it.

The first comment is so dogmatically silly, it almost sounds like it was marinated in Kool Aid.

The second comment would be dependent on the distance. If you can identify an approaching attack early enough to deliver aimed fire while moving off the X, that would be clearly preferable to firing from retention or a quick one-handed point shot, neither of which is as likely to impact the assailant.

There is no one right answer, which is why the best instructors teach a range of responses from bad breath distance out to 25 yards (including three with whom I've trained who are also former or current Gunsite rangemasters).

The preferred course of action is to avoid the situation entirely (be aware, don't frequent places where the probability of trouble is high). When that fails, the second COA is to create as much distance as possible. The second can be combined with either aimed or pointed fire. If he's about to crash into me, he gets as many rounds from retention as I can deliver while moving off the X. If he's further away and I have the time, he gets my front sight on his upper torso and/or ocular window and as many rounds as I can quickly and accurately deliver until he's stopped.

If getting the best hits possible for the situation makes me a "slave to sighted fire," I'm happy to plead guilty.

 

[badguybuster]

That is why I suggested learning how to create more distance. There is NO substitute for being able to use your hands in a life threatening situation, except using your BRAIN.

 

[glypnir]

Thinking about this some more, I always thought that the 21 foot rule was really about when you had already drawn your weapon.

I thought that it meant that if the person with a knife was closer than 21 feet you were in trouble even if your weapon was already out.

After this discussion, I still think so.

 

[badguybuster]

If I am not mistaken (it doesn happen). The whole idea was designed by LE who would stand with gun holstered and the "assailant" would then attack. The LEO would then draw and attempt to beat the said "assailant". The thing is, in today's world most gun fights occur within touching distance or about 7 feet. That is why we teach drawing and shooting from the hip to cut reaction time.

 

[Captain38]

Originally posted by Model520Fan:
I wonder how many posters here can draw from concealment and hit in 1.5 seconds. I know I can't, or haven't.

While making your draw, move 2-3 steps off line, either to the left or right, as quickly as possible! You'll be GLAD you did!