.22 hornet and Prvi Partizan brass incipient case head separation

[elpac3]

Working up some new loads fro the .22 hornet using 11.8 grains of WW 296 (bottom end load) with a 30 grain Barnes Varment Grenade bullet. Using a mixed lot of Winchester and Remington brass with 6-8 reloads on each. This was the 2nd reload for the PP brass with the 296 load.

After the range, got home, deprimed and cleaned the cases. Every PP case (total of 6) had a bright ring with a ridge just above the case web. Took the tubing cutter and opened up a case and sure enough, there was definate thinning of the brass at the web.

No issues with the Winchester or Remington brass. Not sure how the PP cases would hold up with the next reload so they got pitched. Over all, pretty disappointing to only get two reloads on a case. Not sure how PP is making their brass. Have not cut apart any of the Winchester or Remington cases to measure case wall thickness but looks like incipient case head separation on the PP brass. Not sure they will be finding their way onto the loading bench any time soon in the future.

 

[DWalt]

Are you full-length resizing the PP brass? Probably best to stop a little short of complete resizing, leave maybe a 1/8" gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the FL die at TDC.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Another problem on European 22 Hornet is their "Standard" for the shoulder location is often lower on the case than SAMMI spec. cases, this allows a moving foreword of the shoulder in the first firing and a major thinning just ahead of the web.

I have several loading die sets for 22 Hornet. I have an 1970's set of Hornady/Pacific dies, they were called "Minimum Specification" dies and worked the brass extensively on my H&R and Savage rifles, but were the best die set for an Anschutz I had in the late 90's through 2015.

Ivan

 

[elpac3]

Are you full-length resizing the PP brass? Probably best to stop a little short of complete resizing, leave maybe a 1/8" gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the FL die at TDC.

Using a Lee collet sizing die.

 

[loc n load]

May be an issue as you surmised with the brass, PPU had a total recall on their 6.5 Grendel ammo recently. Their notice informed those of us who had purchased these rounds to return them for a refund. They advised us not to shoot the ammo, or use any components of the ammo. I boxed mine up and shipped it back. So there may be issues with some of their other products as well.

 

[bigedp51]

Below is a factory loaded Winchester .303 case that stretched and thinned .009 on the first firing.

This same batch of cases started separating after the first reload, when full length resized.

The problem with these Winchester cases were thin rims and headspace that allowed the case to stretch.

The reason I'm posting this is because Prvi Partizan cases were the best cases you could get for reloading the .303 British. And Winchester cases were the worst and why I sectioned them to show the thinning.

Bottom line, proper fire forming on the first firing and letting the case headspace on its shoulder thereafter prevents the case stretching. And this is a problem with many type Hornet cases.

Below a properly fire formed case that headspaces off it shoulder.

On the first firing if you seat the bullet long and jam the bullet into the rifling this will hold the case against the bolt face, and the case will not stretch. A Enfield rifle at maximum military headspace of .074 and a case with a rim thickness of .058 you would have .016 head clearance.

 

[silentflyer]

I find annealing the brass helps a lot with .22 Hornet brass life.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Elpac3, you are using H-110/WW296 for powder. Have you considered going to the Original loading powder IMR/H 4227. With 40 BT and 45 FB-Hornet bullets I always have very good success. For The 35 grain Hornady Hornet V-max I liked IMR1680 up to 3200 fps. (at 3200 accuracy fell below 1" at 100 yards! This in Factory ammo was 1" to 200 yards and good on small varmints to about 300 on calm days!) Others liked Little Gun, but I found it blew the side out of cases well before max in my 218 Bee and just stayed away from it!

Which rifles or handguns are you loading for? I'm currently down to a 10" Contender and a Pre-1962 Savage 340. Both of these are by far the most accurate pair I have encountered. This is my 4th 340. I had a Ca.1969-70 340 that was pretty good, but a later and a very early 340 were destroyed by bad cleaning practices! This was the first Contender barrel I picked up and just lucked out! A friend had a super 14" Contender that from the factory only had a shadow of rifling (We think the bore diameter was too big). But he didn't know what it was suppose to look like and loaded about 1800fps loads and got 5/8" at 100 yards with it. We talked him into returning it under warranty and the new replacement has shot sub 1" at 200 at full velocity all along.

Ivan

 

[BB57]

Bigedp51's advice is sound.

I used to shoot 7mm Ingram and later 7mm TCU in handgun silhouette matches and the brass is fire formed from a .223 Remington. It's necked up to 7mm, but the shoulder is set too far back and there is too much taper in the case, so it will not head space properly for fire forming.

However, by seating a bullet long enough that it just engages the rifling, you create the equivalent of a "shoulder" to keep the head pressed back against the bolt face and eliminate the stretch that would otherwise occur in the case when you fire formed it.

I found these fire forming loads were almost as accurate as the subsequent loads.

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I use the same approach with the .22 Hornet when loading into new brass or once fired brass that has been full length resized.

The .22 Hornet has significant taper, and a very shallow shoulder angle so all it has to head space on when new is the rim, and cartridges that head space on the rim are notorious for displaying excessive headspace. If the head space is just a little too short in a round that head spaces on the shoulder, most bolt action rifles have enough camming action to size the case enough to get it to chamber. That's not the case in a cartridge that head spaces on the rim as it would have to compress the rim to overcome a too short head space condition.

The end result is that gun makers tend to go long on headspace and cartridge makers tend to go thin on then rim. Both are well intentioned efforts to ensure any ammo and rifle combination will chamber, but the result is often excessive headspace. For a round that is only fired once, the resulting stretching and thinning in the case wall is not a big deal (so ammo makers have no issue with it) but for a hand loader it seriously shortens case life. That's an even more significant issue in the .22 Hornet, given the already thin case wall.

Once you get past the initial firing, just neck size the case. If you only have a full length resizing die, just partially size the case so that you are sizing the neck enough to hold the bullet without moving the shoulder back. However, neck sizing is preferable as it leaves the side walls of the tapered case alone. If you FL resize, you move the whole side of the tapered case back and that quickly work hardens the brass in the sidewall, resulting in spider cracks in the sidewall just below the shoulder where maximum working of the brass occurs.

---

For comparison purposes 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester have exactly the same external cartridge dimensions, but the 7.62x51mm NATO chamber places the shoulder .013 farther forward. That's designed to ensure the round will feed into a dirty chamber, and the brass has a thicker sidewall near the web to ensure it will not separate and will still withstand ejection from machine guns.

However, if you fire .308 Win brass in your 7.62x51 chamber, you'l get .013" more stretch in the case and with the thinner .308 Win case, you end up in the same boat as you do with .22 Hornet.

Consequently, I order my service rifle match barrels with a .308 chamber rather than 7.62x51. In my 7.62x51 Garand which came with a 7.62x51 chamber, and has lots of excess space in the magazine I seat the bullet long enough to just engage the rifling when loading bullets into new brass.

 

[DWalt]

Many years ago, the first time I ran into the situation of ringing on fired cases involved a custom Mauser in 6.5x55mm. Often on the second or third firing I was seeing rings indicating incipient head separation above the base. It turned out that the problem was excessive headspace of the rifle's chamber. I solved it by simply neck sizing after the first firing. That way the shoulder is not pushed rearward during FL resizing, and zero headspace results, i.e., the case is a perfect fit in the chamber. The easiest way to do this is simply to leave a slight gap between the shell holder and the base of the FL resizing die.

 

[daniel lawecki]

I tried a lot of different reloading methods. That is one of the thinnest brass you will ever reload. I load the .22k Hornet and had them separate when opening the Contender about a 1/4" up from the base. I look them over before loading see the ring garbage bound. Seems to me even with different powders and brass 5-6 reloads seem to be max. Lil-Gun, H110,& IMR 4227 all work great. Oh almost forgot I use standard pistol primers with all these powders.

 

[elpac3]

This is an old Winchester m-43 which were known for headspace issues. I can typically get 5-6 loads out of my old Winchester or Remington brass but looks like the PP brass may be two loads then out. True the hornet brass is thin and light, was just surprised by the thinning at the web so quickly.

 

[smithrjd]

My worst one for case stretching was a Pre-64 in 300H&H. If I full length resized perhaps three loads before the ring was really apparent. Got a Lee neck size die and never had another problem. Of course I only used that brass in that rifle. I just got a Model 53 Jet, and got some PPU ammo. Only one reload so far but no issue, and after firing no case stretch. The overall length was still within spec. Hoping they work out as they are the only game in town for 22 Jet brass or ammo without buying ancient stuff for a bunch of money.

 

[bigedp51]

Check how much head clearance you have using a spent fired primer.

First measure a new unfired case and write it down.

Next take the spent primer and start it into the primer pocket with just finger pressure.

Now chamber the case letting the bolt face seat the primer and eject the case.

Next measure the case again from the base of the primer to the case mouth and write it down.

Now subtract the first case measurement from the second and this will be your head clearance. And if you add this to your rim thickness you will have your actual headspace reading.

The head clearance is the airspace between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And this is the distance the case can stretch and thin when fired.

 

[BB57]

The Model 43 is a classic .22 Hornet, and in very good to excellent condition they'll sell for $1000+. However, it's basically a rimfire style action that uses the bolt handle as the sole locking lug, rather than as a safety as is the case for most center fire bolt action rifles.

So in effect, it has a rear locking bolt with a single locking lug, and between normal wear on the bolt/lug and flexing of the bolt, head space tends to be generous.

 

[DarryH]

I will follow this thread. I bought an Anschutz .22 Hornet last year. I have not loaded any ammo yet. Would converting to the .22K Hornet solve the case stretching issue?? Thanks

 

[max503]

IMHO hornet brass is not very robust. (I been loading it for nigh-on 45 years.)

I back-off my full-length die so it only neck sizes the case enough to hold the boolit. The hornet has a monstrously large rim for such a small case. I've never had a problem with case extraction.

 

[rockquarry]

This is an old Winchester m-43 which were known for headspace issues. I can typically get 5-6 loads out of my old Winchester or Remington brass but looks like the PP brass may be two loads then out. True the hornet brass is thin and light, was just surprised by the thinning at the web so quickly.

I've had ten Hornets in the last forty+ years including a 43 that I ended up trading before ever firing it. That's basically a rimfire action and I'd load below max. I'm not familiar with a Lee collet die but all you need is your full-length size die. Size only enough that the bolt will close with slight resistance on a cartridge. Brass will last much longer. After five or six firings, your brass will require a full-length sizing then go back to partial sizing.

I've only used PP brass once. While it worked fine, brass was 14% heavier than Winchester brass and powder charge had to be adjusted because of smaller internal capacity. Another good reason to stick with American components whenever possible.

 

[oldbrownhat]

Following this as well, as I have a 1930's vintage A-G Parker .22 Hornet built on a large-frame Martini action I have been neglecting for a long time.

 

[DanGee]

How thick is the rim on the PP cases as compared to the Winchester and Remington cases? The Hornet headspaces on the rim, and a thin rim will increase headspace.