223/5.56 handloads for a M&P15

[Nevada Ed]

per post 19;

Good at 50, poor at 100yards...
This can happen when a bullet does not match the rifle twist.

Fast twist (1:14) usually do best with light bullets....
Slow twist (1:9) will do better with larger bullets....... However
I had a Speer 70gr RN do under an inch with a tight 1:14 twist in one rifle at 100 yards.
You just never know what your rifle will like with different powders, ball vs extruded, fast
or slow and bullets, FB vs boat tail.

 

[cyphertext]

h the rifle twist.

Fast twist (1:14) usually do best with light bullets....
Slow twist (1:9) will do better with larger bullets.......

1:14 is a slow twist rate... slower than 1:9. The ratio is number of revelutions in inches. So 1:14, the bullet will spin 360 degrees in 14".

I think Ed knows this and just got the fast and slow backwards... but just to clarify for someone who might be looking for more understanding.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Geeeezzzzeeeee...........

Getting old sucks.
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[rockquarry]

The cheap / bulk stuff will go bang, but don't hope for consistent groups smaller than about 2"or so from a bench. Factory match ammo will do much better, but good handloads will beat that. If you're willing to devote the time to load development, try as starters the Sierra 65 grain GK SPBT or the Sierra 69 gr. MK BTHP and H4895 powder, with TAC a close second.

Get a case gauge even before you buy components.

 

[flatfoot]

Great wealth of info here--thanks to all again. In the next week or so I'll be designing my first set of test loads and this thread has a number of good leads to consider.

Possibly related to the case gauge comments, my goal for this rifle/load is to develop something with cheap, easily obtained components that will work tolerably well with the pounds of spent cases I can obtain readily at my local range.

After polishing, I put a handful of this mixed bag of brass through a full length resizing (RCBS standard 223, FL) and then got my swager tuned pretty close to right to seat primers easily. To my surprise, a good 20 to 25% of this brass is just over the maximum case length after resizing. Knowing my local range and its clientele, I am quite certain that pretty much all of this brass has only been fired once. Is this a common occurrence with bulk ammo? Having checked the chamber on my rifle, I don't think "close to max" case length would be a problem BUT--"if there's any doubt, there is no doubt!"

Given how easy to obtain this brass is, I'm not sure I see any point in case trimming. Are the specs for headspace length really that sloppy for bulk ammo? Definitely an area I don't have a lot of experience in.

 

[Westie1]

If you have brass that is over the max length, you do want to trim it. If you don't, what happens is that you add extra crimp. And extra crimp means increased chamber pressure, which is not good for safety or brass/ rifle lifespan.

 

[otisrush]

I'm on the edge of my knowledge here - so someone more knowledgeable either correct or confirm.

Headspace is independent of case length. Headspace on the the .223 is measured from the case head to some place on the shoulder - not exactly sure where. But case length includes the neck. So a sized case can be fine from a headspace perspective, but too long from a max case length perspective.

I've never looked at frequency of case trimming required for true-once-fired brass, but I'm pretty confident (gut feel) that once trimmed to trim-to length, it takes a couple of firings before it needs to be trimmed again.

BTW, that frequency of trimming might be reduced if you set up your dies to not move the shoulder completely back to SAAMI specs with each firing. Although I haven't yet done this, but bumping the shoulder by .004-5" might be sufficient for reliable feeding without overworking the brass (and causing more trimming).

OR

 

[MichiganScott]

The point to case trimming is because an overly long case can jam in the throat of the rifle and hinder or prevent the release of the bullet which will cause pressures to skyrocket with concomitant spontaneous disassembly of your rifle.

 

[rockquarry]

First, you put yourself at an immediate disadvantage using range pickup brass. A lot of this stuff has approximately the same weight and case capacity, but if you're not familiar with brass, some of it may be 10% heavier which might require a reduced powder charge in comparison to other brass, depending on your load. If you must use range stuff, get enough of it with one headstamp and use that. You may or may not have to swage primer pockets before you can prime cases. If you have to swage primer pockets, get an RCBS unit; they're cheap and they work well once adjusted properly, despite what others may say.

Good quality once-fired .223 or 5.56 brass, all with the same headstamp can be bought very cheaply from a number of sources. Trim long brass to the right length. Get a case gauge and run the brass through it after sizing. You might be able to get by without full-length sizing and still have your brass fit your gauge, but you will definitely have to size more than for a bolt-action rifle.

Anyway, size enough for the brass to easily fit your gauge and don't worry about so many thousandths of inch shoulder bump. If a case won't fit the gauge after full-sizing, throw that case in the scrap pile. You don't want to get a case stuck in the chamber of an AR-15. Good luck-

 

[ChiefStealth]

1) Better bullets. Bulk 55gn FMJ are the least accurate. Good luck trying to get 2in groups with any (standard) rifle with bulk bullets.
2) Consistent reloading methodology. All the little tricks like all same brass, and case gauges, and exact OAL, etc. are very little... little help. Doing things the same way every time leads to good accuracy.

 

[sgtsandman]

The info given here for your question is good. I would strongly suggest you go over to youtube and look up 76highboy reloading. He has a complete series on reloading for .223 Remington and covers the how to's and whys for each and every step along the way. It can be a bit tedious but the information he relays is very important, why it's important, and is very detailed. He even goes into range brass and mixed once fired brass but I think that is in a different series.

 

[ameridaddy]

Great wealth of info here--thanks to all again. In the next week or so I'll be designing my first set of test loads and this thread has a number of good leads to consider.

Possibly related to the case gauge comments, Having checked the chamber on my rifle, I don't think "close to max" case length would be a problem BUT--"if there's any doubt, there is no doubt!"
....
Given how easy to obtain this brass is, I'm not sure I see any point in case trimming. Are the specs for headspace length really that sloppy for bulk ammo? Definitely an area I don't have a lot of experience in.

The case gauge's most important function is to check the case length from base to shoulder, not overall length. That's to be sure the cartridge when seated in the chamber will allow the bolt to lock closed with proper space between the bolt face and cartridge base. Too much clearance (oversizing) will wear your brass quickly and may even cause a head separation, giving the shooter a face full of flying particles, hot gas and blow the bottom out of your magazine or worse. That happened to a guy at my range two weeks ago. Too little space (undersizing, not setting the shoulder back far enough) and you run the risk of a slam fire when the bolt closes, just as nasty or worse than the case head separation.

If you're lucky, running the die down to just clear the shell holder with ram fully up may be just right, but if it's not, and you don't know it, you could get hurt.
The distance from your shell holder to the shoulder in the sizing die determines the case headspace length (base to shoulder) To get this right, you may have to set the die with some clearance over the shell holder with the ram all the way up, or you may find the die bottoms out on the shell holder before it sets the case shoulder back enough, in which case you'll have to grind a little off the die to make more clearance.

To be safe, please, get a case gage and use it to check and set your sizing die relative to the shell holder, and thereby establishing a correct case shoulder to base length.

Some case gages (Wilson) also check the over all brass length as well, but calipers will do that too. Just keep the brass overall length within SAAMI limits, your overall cartridge length within magazine limits, and you'll be fine.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a WW748 load of 26.0 grains in mixed brass, trimmed to same length, crimp swaged out. I used CCI Sm Rifle Mag Primers, and Winchester contract overrun 55 gr FMJBT. All these components were from the late 80's & early 90's. The primers and bullets available now are different! I loaded a 20,000 round batch back then, and still have a few thousand.

The results in my 1994 20" Bushmaster with a 14x Leupold of a rest are 1/2" at 100! In my 24" Cooper M21 with a 25x Leupold are 1/8 to 1/4 at 100, depending on wind!

These shoot well in my sons M-4 16" as well.

H335 is a great powder, I just never used it in 223, but use it exclusively in my 22BR!

I have found 50 and 55 grain polymer tipped bullets to be much more consistent than anything else in .224 these days! The problem is finding a large quantity of the same lot! I found a shooting supply that is willing to work with needs, and supplies me with several thousand bullet from the same lot. I buy primers in the 5000 case, and depending on my needs up to 30 pounds of powder in the same lot. (It may take 6 or 7 months to fill one of my orders, but it is done correctly!) I the keep these components as a group for one cartridge/rifle until I need more or I sell the gun.

CONSISTANCY IS THE KEY TO ACCURECY!

I swear by RCBS and Redding dies! But I have a Savage 223 bolt rifle that shoots 3" groups at 1000 yards, but only when using Lee dies, the best my Redding and RCBS competition dies can do is 5" in that gun! I full length size every case! I trim only as often as needed (but keep everything for that gun the same length!)

Keep good notes on what you do and if it works you can repeat it. If it fails, you then know what not to do again! (Lot numbers are important too!)

You have now become a ballistics researcher, have fun!

Ivan

 

[Ballistic147]

To my surprise, a good 20 to 25% of this brass is just over the maximum case length after resizing. Knowing my local range and its clientele, I am quite certain that pretty much all of this brass has only been fired once. Is this a common occurrence with bulk ammo?

I trim all my once fired brass to the 1.750" trim length listed in the load manual. Some are over the max length of 1.760" and typically out of 1,000 cases you will have a handful that are just under the 1.750" trim length. I tumble first, then resize/deprime, trim, chamfer, debur, remove primer crimp and then tumble again. If you are going to use a crimp having all cases the same length will be very important. I trim all my 357/44mag cases also just so I get a consistent crimp. If you will not be crimping it doesn't matter that much providing the cases aren't too long. Once done, you shouldn't need to trim again for several reloads.

Midsouth has a Hornady 62gr BTHP which has been very accurate for me and they work out to about 10 cents each.

 

[elpac3]

per post 19;

Good at 50, poor at 100yards...
This can happen when a bullet does not match the rifle twist.

Fast twist (1:14) usually do best with light bullets....
Slow twist (1:9) will do better with larger bullets....... However
I had a Speer 70gr RN do under an inch with a tight 1:14 twist in one rifle at 100 yards.
You just never know what your rifle will like with different powders, ball vs extruded, fast
or slow and bullets, FB vs boat tail.

Huh - short and sweet. learn more here by accident than most will learn any where else by design

 

[2ndtimer]

I have never had much luck with FMJ bullets in my AR's for decent groups. Your 1 in 9" twist should work fine, even with 40 gr bullets. The key to good groups is good bullets, regardless of their weight. Try some Federal American Eagle Tipped Varmint 50 gr factory loads, or some Fiocchi Extrema 40 or 50 gr V-MAX loads. They are quite affordable and I will be surprised if you don't see significant improvement in your groups. Both my AR's shoot those around an inch or better for 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I get similar performance with handloads with Ramshot TAC powder and 40 or 50 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips or Varmageddons, or Hornady V-MAX or Z-Max bullets.