3 Old Shotguns. What am I looking at here?

Wyatt Burp

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Can any shotgun aficionados shed light on these three guns? The 12 guage percussion gun is marked "Clark" and "London". The 16 guage with silver bare metal finish is an L.C. Smith with replaced fat forend and shortened stock with buttpad. The third gun is a very sleek double gun marked "Knickerbocker" and "American Gun Co.". I found this on that company:
"American Gun Company In 1888, George W. Cilley bought out the defunct Bacon Arms Co. of Norwich, CT. He then formed an alliance with Frank Foster, and borrowed enough money to form the Crescent Fire Arms Company. All American Gun Company Firearms are actually manufactured by Crescent Fire Arms Company. The Knickerbocker was one of the most popular model made by Crescent Fire Arms Company."

This gun appears 16 guage but that guage shell is just slightly large, though fits the L.C. Smith just fine. What's going on there and any info as to quality or anything about these is much appreciated.









 
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No idea what they are, but thanks for posting the pictures! Subscribed to thread to see what the experts come up with.
 
The LC Smith may have a replaced butt stock as well. The wood around the lock (ears) isn't shaped as an LCS would be,,in fact it's been shaped like the Knickerbocker with a small teardrop style point. The 2 screw grip cap isn't LCS. But I have to say from what I can see in the pics it looks lie a nice job of (re) stocking both fore and aft if in fact it is.
A 'Field' grade (or 'O' grade if pre 1913). They were made in Standard weight frame and a featherweight frame. Standard frame ser# started with 'R' (regular) , Featherweight frame guns with 'FW' .
Looks like a 'R' frame gun to me.
Ejectors were available, most seen have plain extractors. Ejector guns would have an 'E; prefix added in the ser# prefix. Regular frames 'RExxx'. Featherweights 'FWExxx'.

A 16ga LCS may have 2 9/16" chambers depending on the era of mfg. Not a big deal really as short shells are available from several makers here in the USA by mail order,
LCSmiths are quality US made shotguns and have a great following. They were made into the 50's when MArlin owned the rights. Then reintro'd by them again in the early 70's with a not so well recv'd short lived version.
There are collectors forums for LCS and older shotguns in general that can give lots of info on these.
Go to the LCSmith table on this page and look up the ser# for a yr/mfg on the gun.
LCS is listed down the page..also watch the LCS ser#'s carefully as they jump around somewhat and are gauge specific in some instances, especially 16ga! But you should be able to zone in on the right era and find the yr.
Double Barreled Shotguns, High Grade Shotgun dates of production doublegunshop.com - shotgun gun firearm SxS Side-by-side

The Cresent Mfg guns were made under a couple dozen or more different names,,Knickerbocker being one. The Cresent Guns generally haven't gotten much attention from collectors or even shooters but that seems to be changing of late. Some are put together pretty well for what they were offered up as (catalog and hardware store guns) and high condition, small bore (16,20, 410ga) guns do seem to be finally getting some interest. But the $$ values are still way below what comparable 'name' brands are.
If the 16ga shell won't chamber.. Measure the chamber, bore dia's if you can. Even a simple caliper can give you a very good idea of chamber dia at the breech. Check specs against standard chamber specs listed on something like the SAAMI site or other shotgun mechanic sites. Sure looks like a 16 in the pic,,a 20ga shell is probably too small but try it anyway to see if it is way too loose just to get that option out of the way.

Also chamber rust or old dried into place oil and cloth like patch flannel can block the shell from chambering smoothly The latter I've found on a couple older guns that were put away with good intentions years ago and just needed to be scrubbed out.
Again short chambers, 2 9/16 in 16ga or 2 1/2 in 20ga may be in place. They were the norm when these things were made. MAny have been altered & lengthened, many have not and have been shot with 2 3/4" shells with no ill effects. Check the old guns over carefully before use and even then use lower pressure loads in deference to their age and unkn history.
Most over the counter shotshell loads are loaded to the top of SAAMI pressure specs to make sure customers semiautos work, so a 'lowbrass' shell means nothing as far as low pressure. You can bet it's right up there. That's why most people that shoot the oldies handload for them to get what they want.
 
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Wyatt, the muzzle loader is pretty standard for the time period prior to breech loaders, or a reproduction there of. Polish a small area of the barrels under the fore arm and apply a drop of vinegar. this will tell you if they are Damascus, that has been blued over. The LC Smith is a feather weight frame, the square corner on the top of the lock plate and the screw on the front " leg" of the plate show that. In addition if you look at the lug coming through the bottom of the frame it is only about an inch long, a regular frame is longer than that. Remove the barrels, and look at the action flats. the grade will be stamped there. It appears to be a field grade. Then check the fore end hanger on the barrels. With that "beavertail" wood I'll bet the hanger is loose or has been repaired. The LC Smith collectors website is a wealth of info. There were no markings for choke, and if the flats of the barrels aren't marked 2 3/4 in a football shaped oval it came from the factory 2 9/16. If you can have someone check chamber length and wall thickness at the end of the chamber, cut the fore end down to a splinter, and the stock fits you, shoot the snot out of it and have fun. Send me a PM if you have more questions. Learn how the LC works first and the Knick will be easy to figure out. Mark
 
as you have already mentioned crescent built many different grades of firearms and sold them under contract to many different chains, thousands were sold through the Simmons hdwe company in St. Louis as well as Belknap out of Louisville ky'

I have owned many through the years with some having every thing from a simple 3 wire twist Damascus to fluid steel barrels, had a Simmons once that had a very nice high grade Damascus set of barrels

they literally manufactured hundreds of Jobber branded guns in both single and double barrels, there are about 3 pages of brands that they manufactured in the Standard catalogue of firearms.

I still have a 12ga model Cresant double now that is a pleasure to shoot

they were built to be solid and last and I would bet they have taken much more game in this country than all the famous named guns combined
 
After seeing the guns and reading the posts all I can say is....COOL!
 
You didn't say whether the shells are too long or too fat. 14 gauge shotguns were made but are quite rare.
 
You didn't say whether the shells are too long or too fat. 14 gauge shotguns were made but are quite rare.
Thanks, everybody. The 16 gauge shell's rim is just slightly too big for that Knickerbocker shotgun. Since they didn't chamber I took the barrel off and turning the shell around tried it and the rim wouldn't fit.I never heard of a 14 gauge, but that would make perfect sense here. Looking at the picture you can see how close they are. In fact, the chamber looks bigger than the shell but that's not the case.
 
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...I bought a Crescent Empire 60 earlier this year...it is in good shape with good case colors on the receiver and good bluing on the barrels and a good stock...it was made in 1927...

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