.311 lead bullets in a 30-30?

[Ceapea]

Well, I bought some Hunters Supply bullets, from Midway, based on customer reviews that they worked well in their 30-30 rifles (and their 30-06/03A3's too).
My mistake (maybe), I didn't realize that they were .311". Not too smart, to miss that info, I know.
I started looking around for info on the .311 bullet in .308/30 cal barrels. I found a bunch of info on jacketed .311's in .308 barrels, and why not to do so.

I could not, however, find much info on lead .311 bullets in those guns. The very little that I did find, had mixed opinions on using the .311's.
I want to load light loads for both my 30-30 and my 03A3/30-06. Cowboy type loads...800 fps-1100 fps.
Maybe I will need a more powerful load to get them through the barrel, if they work at all.

Can these .311 bullets be safely loaded for my purposes? Or should I re-size them to, or even trade them off, for some in .309?

Thanks.

 

[k22fan]

Government specs for manufacturing .30 cal. barrels are .308” minus zero/plus .002”. 1903A3 barrels are as likely to be .310” as .308”. Usually it’s recommended the shank of cast rifle bullets be .001” over groove dia. Cast rifle loads ordinarily are down loaded so much that any increase in pressure due to .002” larger bullet diameter doesn’t matter. That certainly would be the case in your desired velocity range.

The easiest way to load accurate cast bullet rifle loads is to use a bullet that has a cylindrical section of nose that fits snuggly in the lands. Matching the diameter of the bore riding portion of the nose to land diameter is more important than “bullet diameter”. Take a peek at Lyman’s #311284 mold on their website for a classic and excellent .30-06 bullet shape. If your 1903A3 is still in its original stock or was knowledgably bedded, and you can effectively use its sights, then 2" 10 shot 100 yard groups with the #311284 and similar bullets in the 1600 fps to 1900 fps range are common. RCBS, Lyman and Saeco all offer shorter 170-180gr. bore riding molds for .30-30s.

Getting accuracy at 800 fps from a .30-06 might be an entertaining if silly experiment.

 

[Ceapea]

Getting accuracy at 800 fps from a .30-06 might be an entertaining if silly experiment.

Thanks for the info.

Some of the "cowboys" at my club are shooting their 03's (for their bolt action military matches) at really low velocities, 700 fps- 800 fps.
No recoil at all. It's like they're shooting 22 LR's out there. And they are very accurate (at the standard 50 yard range that they use for that match), naturally, without any recoil. I'm using factory loads, they really make the steel plates dance at 50 yards!
I need to check with them about these loads too. Somehow, I remember hearing about 8gr of Trail Boss with a 150gr bullet. It just never occurred to me to ask about bullet diameter.

 

[rockquarry]

Load a couple of dummy rounds and lightly crimp. Measure the outside diameter of the loaded round at the case neck. Check the measurement against book specs for max. outside diameter. If it's okay, work the dummy rounds through the chamber. If they chamber with minimal or no resistance, should be okay and safe. Fire a few of the light loads; if you can insert one of the .311" bullets in the fired, unsized cases, all's fine. If the case necks are too tight, you'll have to turn the case necks to provide adequate neck clearance in the chamber for the .311" bullets.

 

[Ceapea]

Load a couple of dummy rounds and lightly crimp. Measure the outside diameter of the loaded round at the case neck. Check the measurement against book specs for max. outside diameter. If it's okay, work the dummy rounds through the chamber. If they chamber with minimal or no resistance, should be okay and safe. Fire a few of the light loads; if you can insert one of the .311" bullets in the fired, unsized cases, all's fine. If the case necks are too tight, you'll have to turn the case necks to provide adequate neck clearance in the chamber for the .311" bullets.

Would it be worth it to get a .308 or .309 bullet sizing die?
Might be less hassle than turning the case necks.

I have been hand loading for four years or so, just over 35k loaded in that time. All pistol cartridges though.
This rifle stuff is all new to me and I don't want to screw up anything. Especially my guns or my face and hands!
I thought that I had finally decided on dies, bullets, etc... only to find out that the 3 die Lee set (30-30) that I bought doesn't have a crimp die. Then I read that I don't need a crimp die if the neck size/tension is correct.

I don't know!

 

[Alk8944]

There are two things to be considered with cast bullets in rifles. The most important is how the bullet fits the rifles throat. Many rifle bullets have what is called a "bore-rider" nose, a straight section that is slightly under bore diameter which extends into the bore of the rifle when the cartridge is seated. If the nose diameter is too large you will have difficulty seating the cartridge in the chamber. Equally important is cartridge neck diameter with the bullet seated. If too large you will have problems seating the cartridge. with .003" increase in diameter this is rarely a problem in production guns.

Theoretically a cartridge that fits too snugly in the neck of the chamber will cause increased pressures, this can happen with jacketed bullets, with cast bullets this isn't a problem. First, the cast lead alloy bullet has a far lower coefficient of friction than a jacketed one. Second, most loads with cast bullets generate far lower pressure than jacketed bullet loads, often less than 1/2 as much. If there is a small pressure increase what difference does it make?

All said, typically .311" is often ideal for a cast bullet in the average .30 cal. rifle, regardless what the cartridge. Check the bore rider first by inserting a bullet point first into the muzzle of the gun you want to shoot it in. If it goes in freely, or with very little pressure. all the way to the first full diameter band you are halfway there. Second, load a dummy with the bullet and try to chamber it. If it will chamber freely all is good. If he front band engages the rifling before the cartridge is fully seated there is a problem. There are two choices, either find a different bullet/mould, or have a gunsmith lengthen the throat to accept the bullets you have.

Interesting point. Lyman 31141, now 311041. The first three numbers indicate the diameter it is designed to be sized to, note this. The bullet was specifically designed for the .30-30 cartridge. I have several .30 cal rifles, including .30-30 and .30 Remington. My 31141 mould casts bullets with the bore roder too large, they are .3005-.3010 depending on alloy. They are too tight on the nose. The bullet has a front band ca. .100 long which engages the rifling too soon. This is in ALL my rifles in these calibers.

Use the .311 bullets if they fit as described.

 

[W.E.G.]

Something I discovered shooting significantly-reduced loads.

You will get severe "sooting" of the necks.

When I used 38.0 grains 4895 in some 30-06 loads, they were fine for accuracy, but the sooting was so bad that the sooty gas even blew past the brass, and gave me a spritz in the face.
There was sooting all the way back to the case rim.

Be sure you load hot enough that the neck seals the chamber.
Otherwise, you're gonna get gas coming back at you.

 

[Ceapea]

Something I discovered shooting significantly-reduced loads.

You will get severe "sooting" of the necks.

When I used 38.0 grains 4895 in some 30-06 loads, they were fine for accuracy, but the sooting was so bad that the sooty gas even blew past the brass, and gave me a spritz in the face.
There was sooting all the way back to the case rim.

Be sure you load hot enough that the neck seals the chamber.
Otherwise, you're gonna get gas coming back at you.

Yep, I have found that with light 38/357 and 44 spl/mag loads too. Too light a charge, low case pressure=sooty cases.

 

[Ceapea]

There are two things to be considered with cast bullets in rifles. The most important is how the bullet fits the rifles throat. Many rifle bullets have what is called a "bore-rider" nose, a straight section that is slightly under bore diameter which extends into the bore of the rifle when the cartridge is seated. If the nose diameter is too large you will have difficulty seating the cartridge in the chamber. Equally important is cartridge neck diameter with the bullet seated. If too large you will have problems seating the cartridge. with .003" increase in diameter this is rarely a problem in production guns.

Theoretically a cartridge that fits too snugly in the neck of the chamber will cause increased pressures, this can happen with jacketed bullets, with cast bullets this isn't a problem. First, the cast lead alloy bullet has a far lower coefficient of friction than a jacketed one. Second, most loads with cast bullets generate far lower pressure than jacketed bullet loads, often less than 1/2 as much. If there is a small pressure increase what difference does it make?

All said, typically .311" is often ideal for a cast bullet in the average .30 cal. rifle, regardless what the cartridge. Check the bore rider first by inserting a bullet point first into the muzzle of the gun you want to shoot it in. If it goes in freely, or with very little pressure. all the way to the first full diameter band you are halfway there. Second, load a dummy with the bullet and try to chamber it. If it will chamber freely all is good. If he front band engages the rifling before the cartridge is fully seated there is a problem. There are two choices, either find a different bullet/mould, or have a gunsmith lengthen the throat to accept the bullets you have.

Interesting point. Lyman 31141, now 311041. The first three numbers indicate the diameter it is designed to be sized to, note this. The bullet was specifically designed for the .30-30 cartridge. I have several .30 cal rifles, including .30-30 and .30 Remington. My 31141 mould casts bullets with the bore roder too large, they are .3005-.3010 depending on alloy. They are too tight on the nose. The bullet has a front band ca. .100 long which engages the rifling too soon. This is in ALL my rifles in these calibers.

Use the .311 bullets if they fit as described.

Thanks.
I'm starting to here some of this same advice on other forums that I posted the question on. But some people are saying, no way, stay with .308" bullets. I have always heard that you want at least .001 more diameter for lead, in any caliber. Sometimes .002".
But when it came to .003 over nominal, I got a little concerned.
I've got an old Lyman manual from the 70's. I'll look up those bullets/moulds there.

Thanks.

 

[perrazi]

when you decide which way to go on your bullets, try sr 4759 and trail boss powers. they were made for what you want to do. sr 4759 NOT sr 4756 in these loads.

 

[rockquarry]

In my earlier post, I failed to mention that with cast bullets, generally, using the largest diameter bullet that will safely chamber is the way to go for best accuracy. .308" cast bullets are almost always too small. Some rifles do well with .309", but .310" is probably the "all around" diameter. Nevertheless, .311s are certainly worth trying.

In my Colt revolvers, a .358" or .359" cast bullet shoots best, even with tight bores of .354" or .355".

 

[Calliope]

.311" lead bullets are very popular with the Marlin Microgroove crowd.

 

[Forrest r]

I've sized/shot/cast/sized nothing but .311 bullets for several different 30 cal's for decades. Never had a problem & accuracy was outstanding compared to .308/.309 cast bullets.

At the end of the day unless you have the right expander ball in your sizing die none of this will matter. In typical dies the expander ball is .308 for jacketed bullets. I like to use rcbs dies for rifles, they come with .308 expander's & if you call them they will send you an expander ball for a 303 free of charge. The british 303 uses a .310 expander ball, so the bullet will only get swagged down to .310 when their loaded instead of .308.

Without getting into "short start pressure" from the bullets being left long & engraving into the riflings or bore ridding noses, etc. The front drive band of the exposed bullet will be .311 & the rest of the bullets body will be swagged down to .310 when their loaded in the cases. .311 to .310 is allot better for accuracy than .311 down to .308.

 

[Maximumbob54]

My Marlin 336 won't shoot a .309" bullet at all but if I load .310" or .311" then it shoots just fine. I forget the charge but Trail Boss makes for a VERY powder puff style load. I usually use Win 748.

 

[Ceapea]

My Marlin 336 won't shoot a .309" bullet at all but if I load .310" or .311" then it shoots just fine. I forget the charge but Trail Boss makes for a VERY powder puff style load. I usually use Win 748.

Yeah, Trail Boss is what I was planning on.
I've seen charges from 6.5gr to 9.0gr for 30-30, I think.
Thanks.

 

[Ceapea]

I ended up re-sizing them to .309".
An old timer at my club, who happens to be a cowboy action shooter for the last 30 years, is very familiar with both of my rifles. Both are older, from the 50's. He has loaded for them for decades. He said that these early rifles had tighter (compared to more recent versions of the same models) throats. He specifically mentioned the neck size and how the throat size dictates the bullet size, based on how much the neck opens when fired.
I couldn't get a .311" bullet to fit into a fired, non-re-sized case, even after flaring the case mouth. So, if the case neck didn't open up enough (when fired) to take the .311" bullet, it would probably create a too high a pressure situation, just based on the case neck holding the bullet too tight. Or, not enough room in the throat to allow the neck to open enough, under pressure, creating too much pressure. A little redundant, I know but, I want to make sure of what I'm trying to say.
I figure, start with the smaller bullet and start out perhaps a little safer. If they don't shoot well, I can always step up in diameter as needed. I saved most of the 500 that I had, to size to .310" if needed.
We'll see how the .309's work out.

Thanks to all.

 

[Rockets]

.311" lead bullets are very popular with the Marlin Microgroove crowd.

Yes.... The Marlins like the .311s

 

[2152hq]

Do a quick chamber cast,,that will let you measure the neck diameter of the chamber. With that dimension, you can compare with the outside neck diameter of loaded rounds with the different diameter bullets in place.
You can then quickly see if there is a few .ooo" clearance between case neck and chamber wall in the neck area as needed,,or if a certain bullet diameter is making for a too close of a fit between the chamber wall and the case. There must be some room for the case to expand in the neck area of the chamber to release the bullet w/o increasing
chamber preassures.

If it's close but a few .000" more clearance would be better,,inside neck reaming of the brass will do the trick after sizing. An extra step in the loading procedure, but only has to be done once.

I shoot cast .310 and .311 bullets in 30-06, 30-40Krag & 30-30. All light loads usung Red Dot powder . Very accurate out to 100m
Just tried some of the 311 bullets in a 303cal British Lee-Speed sporter and they were slamming into the target sideways at 50m.
No doubt in my mind that I looked so very cool on the range that day with that rifle. Too bad the target Gods weren't with me.
I have some .314's to try,,,then it's off to become a ,375 Express perhaps,,
Time for a chamber and bore cast on that one I guess.

 

[scattershot]

.311 is a good size for cast bullets in a .30 caliber rifle.

 

[brucev]

I have been shooting the Hunters Supply .30 165 gr. bevel based flat nosed cast lead bullet for at least 10 years. I shoot it in Remington and Smith Corona 03-A3 rifles and a Remington 1903 rifle. I load it in neck sized brass over 8.0 gr. of Unique. It will hold the 10 rings of the SR-1 fired prone at 100 yds. I shoot it as it comes from the box. Velocity is slow, but at 100 yds. there is simply no need for anything more than the speed of a .22 LR round.

In very cold weather it goes so slow that it starts to loose base stability. Nevertheless, it will still stay in the 10 rings. On one particularly cold morning while firing a vintage military rifle match, one of my fellow competitors complained when he saw the bullet holes on my target while we were patching targets for the next stage. He noted they holes were a little "long." He reported to the director and everyone else that I had a unfair advantage as I was firing "sidewinder missiles!" Nowadays, I shoot the same bullet over 9.0 gr. of Unique. It is just as accurate and works better in cold weather.

Google "The Load" by C.E. Harris. He suggests using 13.0 gr. of Red Dot with a number of rifle calibers using both cast and jacketed bullets. I have found his load suggestion works very well w/ 180 gr. cast lead bullets in the 03-A3 rifles. The two-groove barrels give outstanding results. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.