32 H.E. 2nd Mod Target Converted to Square Butt

[goatsnguns]

This is a .32 Hand Ejector Model of 1903 Target, s/n 17920 shipped August 30, 1905, per Roy's Letter. It is interesting that when I requested a ship date, it came back from Roy as shipped in July, 1907. All the serial numbers match, butt, cylinder, barrel flat, yoke arm, ejector star. I have not checked under the rear sight, but have no doubt it is a match. Most interesting is the metalwork done to convert the grips frame from a round butt to a square butt. It is very well done and I would guess that it was done at the factory, however I have no documentation to support that. The mainspring and the trigger return springs have had their sides jeweled. The stocks are not numbered, they appear to be CocoBolo, and they have factory escutcheons. The serial number on the butt looks to be proper type face, and reads with the barrel towards the left. There is no rework star or date stamp on the grip frame. When checking the SCSW 4th ed, page 141 it noted that "No .32 HE model of 1903 Targets were reported in the s/n range 1 to 19425". I have two of them, the other being s/n 13765. Also noted in SCSW that these are 5 screw frames, both of these are 4 screw frames.
This is a show & tell, but I would appreciate any information or comments you may have.

Thanks you,

 

[Igiveup]

I sure get confused on these subjects. I have a 38 M&P Model os 1902, 3rd change that shipped in 1906 and it has round butt black rubber grips. Were both types used at same time?

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

It's a nice looking revolver. I was surprised to see the outline of the original grip frame, as I had expected that the frame extension would have been welded on. This looks like some kind of epoxy, or other adhesive, to hold the extension in place.

The gun was shipped in 1905, and extension wood grips were available in 1903, so it's curious that someone went to a lot of trouble when a much simpler conversion was available.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Muley Gil]

I sure get confused on these subjects. I have a 38 M&P Model os 1902, 3rd change that shipped in 1906 and it has round butt black rubber grips. Were both types used at same time?

If you mean round butt and square revolvers, yes, from 1905 on, both round butts and square butts were available, though after a while, square butts became the most common.

The 1st M&P revolver, the 1899 was RB only. The 1902 was also a round butt.

 

[Model19man]

Very nice revolver! Mine is a Model 1902 round butt. The recoil is almost undetectable on this little round. The conversion is unusual, are there any rivets visible?

 

[goatsnguns]

Mike,
Thanks for your thoughts. I am not sure how the extension was secured but it does not look like epoxy or adhesive. It may be silver solder or furnace brazing. The finish machine marks on the grips frame are even on the entire surface and the blueing is also, it appears that the surface finish was done after the attachment (photo). This leads me to think this may have been a "toolroom" project, as alluded to by Roy in the second to last sentence in his letter. I would like your opinion on the sticks, they look period correct to me. As far as the ship date, it may have been "stored" away by someone until 1905. Also keep in ind that there are two different ship dates given by Roy. Maybe Don will chip in at some point.

Royce,
There are no rivets to be seen.

 

[Model19man]

Mike,
As far as the ship date, it may have been "stored" away by someone until 1905. Also keep in mind that there are two different ship dates given by Roy.

I only see one date in the letter you posted - is there another? Weird that the revolver would ship in 1905 if there was a square butt set of stocks offered by the factory in 1903.

 

[goatsnguns]

ROYCE,

Roy's Factory letter, dated February 6, 2023, says it was shipped August 30, 1905. When I requested a ship date on the Forum, in February 2022, he said it was shipped in July 1907, those are the two dates.

Gary

 

[Model19man]

July 1907 is really late. Makes me think the 1907 date is a return for service.

 

[rct269]

Given you have two of these of these guns, have the jeweled springs been thinned appreciably compared to those in the other gun?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[goatsnguns]

Ralph,

I will pull the other gun from the safe tomorrow and check if there are any differences with the springs.

Gary

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

I noticed that the contour of this modified round butt, and the stocks that match the contour exactly, are not the contour of the square butt K-frame that was introduced in 1905, nor is it the contour of the 1903 square butt extension stocks. Your modified frame does not flare out on the front grip strap, like the other two alternatives that I mentioned. This gives it a very different appearance, and I'd think a different hand feel.

For these reasons, I would argue that your stocks are not period correct. This contour is different, to put it bluntly! This looks to be a one-off, either done for the owner of the gun, or less-likely as a factory experiment in the tool room -- in my opinion. The grips are very nice, but I believe they were made for this particular gun.

The letter leaves me confused. If the gun was shipped in 1905, the phrase "Then in 1903 the company produced a special conversion target grip --- " is out of sync time-wise, and seems not relevant to your gun.

I see nothing in the letter to suggest that the gun was shipped in its present configuration. It's my guess that the special order notion was the grips, meaning that they were possibly the factory extension stocks. Typically anything done experimentally was not sold right away, but would stay in the factory for some number of years. If it was a tool room effort, it would not have been shipped with that serial number in 1905.

On the other hand, never say never with regards to the S&W factory !

You asked for my opinion - I hope you enjoy it!

Regards, Mike

 

[Hondo44]

Gary, I have to say that is one very unique gun. We've seen some modified guns attributed to the factory but not believable based on the evidence.

However yours has the most realistic possibility in my opinion. Whether a toolroom gun or an employee made gun, my two best guesses, we'll never know. But the serial number positioning* with its period correct font, and the skillful level of workmanship certainly have a realistic factory made look. I agree the machined square butt attachment is silver soldered in place and finished flush with the grip frame.
*My one negative observation (if I'm seeing it correctly) is that the butt number should read right side up with the barrel pointing to the right to be correct factory protocol for that pre WWII period of production.

It's a remarkable gun and an awesome find! I'm glad it survived for you to discover and recognize its uniqueness.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm also curious about the 1903 date for the square butt conversion grips. The sq butt extended target grips with two screws existed long before 1903 for other models. And the later conversion grips for the Regulation Police models didn't come about until 1917, and of course required a rebated back strap.

I think it deserves an inquiry to Roy to clear that up.

Edit: I think I just may have figured it out what Roy meant; he wrote "would" target grips. Of course he meant "wood" grips. The first target grips I referenced above were hard rubber. 1903 maybe when they were first produced in wood. I'll have to check the books.

 

[mrcvs]

I've gone back to this thread several times the last day and a half. My initial gut instinct is the way I still feel about it.

The work sure looks to be of factory quality. But it doesn't seem like something the factory would do. It seems they would cut and weld.

And so my observations are inconclusive.

 

[Hondo44]

Follow up on my post #14 above:

Walnut Target extended two screw stocks, were introduced beginning with the Model 1891 single shot, and in 1903-1904 on the .32 Model 1903-1st Change Target models (some will be found with the earlier hard rubber target stocks). Also introduced on fixed sight and target models are the standard size walnut stocks, which were optional to the hard rubber.

 

[handejector]

Gary,
The grips are rosewood and are quite similar in color and finish to grips used on several Tip-Up models that had smooth rosewood grips. Look at the Models 1, 1-1/2, and 2 in your N&J.

Very interesting gun. As you say, tool marks obviously extend across both the original frame and the new extension, and the work is Factory grade. Add in what appears to be Factory carbona blue and the case can be strongly made that it is Factory work.
As for the serial number orientation being backward, perhaps it was numbered before being attached and the guy just screwed up, or maybe they reversed the direction to make it obvious it was a Tool Room gun.
SCSW is just wrong about the Mod 1903 being a 5 Screw. I'm no authority on small frames but isn't that a big part of the 1903-1st Change- adding the 5th screw?

 

[merl67]

Gary

It's a nice looking revolver. I was surprised to see the outline of the original grip frame, as I had expected that the frame extension would have been welded on. This looks like some kind of epoxy, or other adhesive, to hold the extension in place.

The gun was shipped in 1905, and extension wood grips were available in 1903, so it's curious that someone went to a lot of trouble when a much simpler conversion was available.

Regards, Mike Priwer

My guess, and it's just that I am thinking it is possibly sweat soldered on

 

[goatsnguns]

Lee,
Thanks for your insight. At first I thought that the stocks were Rosewood, but I thought Rosewood would show more open grain on the unfinished backs. They do not show any open grain on the reverse side. I do think that they are very early as the fit, finish & look match those of the tip-ups. I know we will never know for sure how or where the work was done. But I agree it gives off strong factory vibes.

Ralph,
I did not have time to compare this gun with my other one before we left to go camping. I will try and do that this coming weekend.

Mike,
I agree, the stocks were made for this one of a kind gun.

Jim,
I appreciate your ideas, they are food for thought! I hope to take this gun and another oddball 1899 that I have to the next symposium in Tulsa.

Ian,
I agree with your assessment of the work.

Randy,
I am leaning more towards Silver Soldered.

Thanks to all for sharing your comments.

Gary

 

[Hondo44]

SCSW is just wrong about the Mod 1903 being a 5 Screw. I'm no authority on small frames but isn't that a big part of the 1903-1st Change- adding the 5th screw?

Yes.

The OP's guns #13765 & #17920 (shipped Aug 30, 1905) are both 4 screws, and both fall in the serial range for the *Model 1903 (2nd Model .32 HE) - No Change, #1 - 19425 production 1903-04. They are not described as 5 screw guns in the SCSW 3rd ed., only in the SCSW 4th which I agree is wrong or at least mostly wrong:
In my notes from observations and other sources some later production starts showing up with 5 screws (this could be because they were later production but still in the 1 to 19425 serial range and actually produced during the next model production. Maybe they should be called the Models 1903 - 1st Change which is supposed to be in the range of #19426 thru 51126, 1904-06. The SCSW 4th does correctly describe this model as a 5 screw.
As we've seen time and time again, the changes don't always fit perfectly into the model designations and serial ranges the way we'd like them to.

*And the book claims there were no target variations in this model, but we know better thanks to goatsnguns!

 

[goatsnguns]

Ralph,

Per your request in post #10. I am sorry I forgot to dig 13765 out of the safe and check the springs against 17290. I did some cursory measurements of the springs and there is no appreciable difference between the two save the jeweling on the edges, the flats are not jeweled. Here are photos of 13765.

 

[goatsnguns]

Here are a couple more photos.

 

[Hondo44]

That's a stunningly nice scarce .32 Target.

Looks like it's had a vintage non-factory refinish. And the butt was taped over so it didn't get reblued.

 

[goatsnguns]

Jim,

I think what you noticed on the butt is a function of the lighting. In hand there are no signs of a re-finish. I have added a few photos that hopefully will show a homogeneous finish on the butt of the grip frame.

Gary

 

[Hondo44]

Gary,

I see what you mean, the two photos are very different looking. This is an amazing example of how two photos of the same gun with different lighting can look so different.

I remember two photos of the same Registered .357 Mag showed up in two different threads, two different photos of the same gun and the difference was dramatic like yours. One looked like a new gun and the other like a fairly worn gun which was the accurate photo.

But you have the gun in hand so I believe how you say it actually looks.

 

[goatsnguns]

Jim,

Upon studying the first image, I think it may be reflecting the ceiling in my office.....photo attached.

Gary

 

[2152hq]

The piece looks Brazed/Silver Brazed/Silver Soldered (Hard Soldered) into place. Whatever term you may want to use, it was/is a high temp process. Depending on which of these and the specific alloy the flow temps can be around 1100 to 1600F.


Which ever,,The extension would be slightly oversize in my way of thinking. Perfect in how it fits to the frame contour, to get nothing but that hair line of braze to show betw the two parts. But slightly oversize to the grip flats.
This is where the oversize matr'l would be machined down to meet the orig grip flat surface.
Start with a Mill perhaps or go right to a surface grinder. The marks seem to indicate the latter was at least used to do the finish up work.

In doing this perhaps the orig grip flat surface was taken down a couple .000 or so to make sure every thing was nice and even.
Not enough to make a big difference when measuring the tang width now, but just enough to make trimming the side(s) of the springs a couple .000 as well to make sure they didn't touch the back side of the grip panels.
The jeweling a quick added attraction after polishing the springs.
On those surfaces it can be done hand held under the spinning jeweling head. A couple minutes work at best.

The Frame would have had to be polished at least around the tangs to blend the new extension metal polish with the orig tang polish. The gloss and grit marks have to match.
The rest of the frame if not heat damaged from the Brazing would be just stripped of the blue and the surface brightened back up. The new work area and orig polish brought to match once again

With my little experience with Charcoal Blue and Carbona, neither takes well over 'old bluing'. In other words it doesn't touch up easily as Rust Blue can or even Hot Salt.

So I would say either the entire Frame was stripped and repolish and the frame w/ new extension re-blued.
Or....
The extension was added to the Frame while still in production,,still 'In the White'.
That way the entire Frame got it's final polish and then factory blue (Charcoal or Carbona) and that is what you see..
Not added to an already finished and blued gun, but added to an In the White gun during production and then final finished.

The 'Why would they do this' and When,,I have no idea. I'm not the collector.
But that's what I see and I think that is what went on here.

 

[Hondo44]

The 'Why would they do this' and When,,I have no idea. I'm not the collector.
But that's what I see and I think that is what went on here.

Great appraisal of a very special gun; a real prize that's for sure! Of all the "mystery" guns we've seen on this forum, this one is the most intriguing to me. And the one that I'd bet the most on being factory related. But there's some real artisans out there and we don't even know the time frame of when the work was done. And never will unfortunately. Sure fun to speculate however.

 

[gmborkovic]

As an old tool room rat, that extension is an example of some beautiful work. Those old guys were true artisans. I have seen some great work, but nothing like exhibited in the OPs pics.

 

[goatsnguns]

2152hq,

I certainly find no fault or disagreement with your hypothesis, in fact it shows a that a lot of thought & knowledge went into your thinking, I really appreciate your views, Thank you.