329pd Blast Shield crack and forcing cone erosion

[dla]

Blast shield erosion started when I used W296 - at least as near as I can tell. At the 1000 round mark, more than half of which was W296/H110 and LilGun loads pushing 240gr bullets, the blast shield cracked. So it is time for another trip to S&W. Also note that you can see some erosion of the top of the Forcing Cone. I don't know if the forcing cone wear is something to be concerned about or not. Experts, your input appreciated.

 

[ncy54]

Just don't say that you've been using reloads......"factory magnum loads only, sir" when you talk to them.
Also, 1000+ hot magnum rounds through one of these lightweight Scandiun/Titanium pistols will likely take a toll on them, unlike a stainless 629.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

...
Also, 1000+ hot magnum rounds through one of these lightweight Scandiun/Titanium pistols will likely take a toll on them, unlike a stainless 629.

I'd also like to see an Xray of his hand...

 

[Alk8944]

Don't know which you are talking about on the blast shield, the slot running fore and aft, or the oval slot parallel to the breech of the barrel? That last is what the blast shield is for, it is sacrificial and protects the frame from gas cutting. It is an expendable part intended to be replaced periodically.

What you believe is gas cutting on the barrel breech isn't. No doubt it came from the factory that way and you just haven't noticed before. Don't have any idea what the fitter had in mind, but it looks like file work. Typical erosion in this area is very slight and evenly radiused and extends 360 degrees around the circumference. Since gasses vent around the entire 360 degrees that erosion is invariably even all around instead of being localized as this is.

As to choice of powder, I realize, at least in the manuals, you can get very marginally higher velocity in the magnums with H-110/296 and Lil' Gun, but at the cost of increased wear to the gun in the form of erosion and gas-cutting. Unless you are loading absolute maximum loads, and I cannot imagine why in an aluminum alloy gun of any caliber, it just isn't worth the pain to do so. If you are hunting with this gun and feel a need for the slight, and it is very slight, additional velocity you can get with these propellants. You may gain 30-50 FPS, but is the extra wear to the gun worth it? 2400 will do everything these others will do within practical limits and is easier on your gun. It takes a little less, about 10%, powder to achieve virtually identical results, and 2400 is far more flexible than H-110/296, it can safely be loaded down to more moderate velocities if desired. Just a thought for you from someone who has been shooting the magnums for 50 years or so and has out-grown the perceived need to run everything at maximum level all the time.

 

[Mack]

LilGun in particular has been know to cause problems. IIRC Freedom Arms says not to use it in their revolvers and it voids their warranty.

 

[BruceM]

With respect to gas cutting of the top strap in steel framed magnum revolvers, it is inevitable if you are shooting full power ammo, whether factory or handloads. That said, it is self limiting. It will progress only so far and then no further. Therefore, a preference of 2400 over H110/W296 makes little sense on that basis. When loading full power magnum ammo, H110/W296 will give at least equal and usually better accuracy than 2400 and versatility should be a non-issue as 2400 is not a good choice for reduced power ammunition although ammo which will go bang can be assembled. It (H110)will generate lower pressures at equivalent velocities that 2400 and it's recoil impulse seems lower. Everybody talks about gas cutting but neglects to mention that fact and it's effect on the lifespan of your gun. With H110/W296, higher maximum velocities (with excellent accuracy) can be obtained than with 2400 and you don't have all those little kernels of unburned powder to deal with. I cannot speak to Lil' Gun although I have heard of erosion issues associated with it's use which are not limited to gas cutting of the top strap.

It seems obvious to me that the overriding design goal of the 329PD was ease of carry and concealment and not durability. The posted photo does not appear to be an atypical result of firing magnum level ammo through the piece. It would seem that potential owner of a 329PD should factor that into the costs of ownership.



Bruce

 

[dla]

I haven't used 2400 yet, but I have used Ramshot Enforcer. I never saw any BS erosion with Enforcer. But after no more than 30 W296-charged rounds I could see the shield being etched.

LilGun does give the top velocity, beating W296 by about ~60fps when pushing a 240gr XTP. The difference between W296 and Enforcer is only about 20fps or so - in the noise.

Hodgdon's H110(identical to W296) is available locally and so is LilGun. Ramshot Enforcer is hit or miss when I'm traveling out of state, otherwise I have to mail order it.

Enforce does work pretty well with a non-magnum primer, as my data shows. But as some of my testing was done when it was colder, I could tell that Enforcer benefited from a magnum primer - the rounds felt more consistent even though the Chronograph didn't show huge ES's.


44 magnum load data

 

[pinkymingeo]

Presuming you bought your gun new, the shield is a warranty item. Call S&W and they'll send you a label. On the ammo front, AA9 will give you 296 performance with much less drama. Accurate's published data is right on, unlike the fiction from Hodgdon. Check it out.

 

[Don K.]

Not to be cliche, but my 329 is the best .44 Special I could buy. I carry the snot out of my 329, and it's so holster worn that I know it is now even lighter. It is my around the house/barn everyday gun. I love it for that. Mostly Specials or lite Magnums. Mostly Unique loads through it. I shot my first handloaded rounds with H110 through this gun. Never thought much about H110 recoiling through my steel guns since. I figured it would make me or break me. and it did. The round count is low, but I trust it. I'm contemplating a 329 nightguard in Thunderware as a deep carry setup. Another carry a lot/shoot a little compromise obviously, but i'm convinced its worth it.

 

[dla]

I'm one of those guys who wants to master a particular weapon. I didn't buy the 329pd to shoot light loads. I did work up a 240gr lswcc @920fps plinker, but frankly I find it boring. The only way I know to be proficient with a carry gun is to shoot it. And I don't find shooting the 329pd a big deal anymore. I'm at the point where I'm considering getting a 44 mag caliber conversion for my SDB because cranking out rounds on the Lee Classic Turret is too slow.

 

[TSQUARED]

I cannot comment of the use of Lil'Gun in pistol loads but I tried using it for 410 shotshell and had several sheared cases upon firing. Several other shooters had had the same expereince in 410 shotshell. It appears that LilGun is a very hot burning powder. Personally I would not use these very slow burning powder in a revolver since they will always lead to erosion in the places mentoned by the original post.

 

[dla]

I don't know how evil LilGun is - I've burned some of it and I really don't see much difference between it and W296/H110. It does seem to warm the gun up faster. I get about 60fps more velocity from LilGun than W296, otherwise they "feel" the same when shooting. I'd need to use a Ransom rest to tell the difference in accuracy.

 

[cp1969]

When loading full power magnum ammo, H110/W296 will give at least equal and usually better accuracy than 2400 and versatility should be a non-issue as 2400 is not a good choice for reduced power ammunition although ammo which will go bang can be assembled.

Bruce

I don't know what you base the statement that H110/W296 usually give better accuracy on but that is not my experience. I've tried them and didn't see any improvement at all over 2400.

2400 may not be a good choice for reduced power loads but it is a lot better than H110/W296 in that respect. It also depends on what you mean by 'reduced' loads. For a popgun load, you're right--2400 is a poor choice, but so are H110/W296. But a 10 percent reduced load in 2400 is no big deal whereas reloading manuals at times cautioned against reducing H110/W296 more than 3%. 2400 is much more flexible in this regard and I have found it to provide more accuracy than I can use.

 

[BruceM]

"I don't know what you base the statement that H110/W296 usually give better accuracy on but that is not my experience. I've tried them and didn't see any improvement at all over 2400."

Base on the fact that both myself and a very good friend have shot many thousands of round using all three propellants in a variety of .44 Magnum S&W revolvers since 1977. Doesn't count for much I know but that's the basis of that statement.

As far as the suitability of 2400, H110 and W296-none are suitable for good reduced power loads so the fact that 2400 loads can be reduced while H110/W296 for all intents and purposes can't doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If they're not suitable, they're not suitable-end of story. When I'm building magnum ammunition for HANDGUNS, I'm only interested in combinations of components which give both maximum accuracy and maximum velocity. In RIFLE ammo, I'm willing to trade a little velocity for more accuracy as a last resort but in handguns-not so much. For medium velocity .44 magnum loads, there are so many other propellants out there which are better than 2400 that I don't even worry about it. I don't assign the mystical qualities many do to Unique but that powder comes to mind and there are a number of others. You also don't have to deal with the unburned kernels 2400 leaves behind, especially when used in so-called reduced loads.

I'm not going to say that full power 250 grain H110/W296 loads don't have recoil but the perceived recoil is definitely less than in loads of similar velocity using 2400. I've used a lot of all three powders going back to the days when W296 actually smelled different than H110 and H110 was a surplus powder sold by Hodgdon. Winchester (Olin) made & sold 296 and there was an "H" for Hercules in front of 2400. I have gotten good results and like all three. I'm just saying that for most .44 mag applications, H110/W296 will give greater velocity with accuracy equal to and usually better than 2400. Perceived recoil and chamber pressure will also be less.



Bruce

 

[ncy54]

I didn't buy the 329pd to shoot light loads.

While the 329pd will digest full power magnum loads, just as any magnum rated HG will, it will have a lesser service life than the more robust steel framed revolvers.
It's purpose in the spectrum of .44 magnum guns is as a personal defense weapon that is lighter and more easily carried. The trade off is reduced service life and increased recoil with magnum loads.
Sounds like the wrong gun for your stated purpose. Perhaps you might consider finding a used Model 29 or 629 if you like to put a lot of hot rounds down range. Many are gently used, as the common story of a used 629 with a box of magnum's missing six being offered for sale has a ring of truth to it.
If you must shoot max loads from that 329pd once it comes back from S&W, try to do it occasionally. Lighter mag loads and Specials will give you all the trigger time you need to keep your technique and skills intact. BTW, a cylinder full of mag's at the end of a session always seemed to clean out any lead from any light handloads.
As far as recoil goes, that's quite subjective. Full house rounds out of my
8 3/8" stainless 629 is enough for me, though significantly worse was 158gr. mag's out of a .357 AirLite J frame (grips came loose after 3 rounds), followed closely by a .50 Action Express Desert Eagle (it may weigh five pounds, but it still hurt).

 

[dla]

While the 329pd will digest full power magnum loads, just as any magnum rated HG will, it will have a lesser service life than the more robust steel framed revolvers.

Really? Do you have any data backing up that statement?

Sounds like the wrong gun for your stated purpose.

Follow the link. You couldn't be more wrong.

If you must shoot max loads from that 329pd once it comes back from S&W, try to do it occasionally. Lighter mag loads and Specials will give you all the trigger time you need to keep your technique and skills intact.

Nope, nadda, and neener-neener. Either you learn to shoot it as you carry it or you're just playing Cowboy's and Indians. Besides, the 329pd isn't that hard to handle. I suspect that few guys actually carry their all steel 44 mags (other than from the truck to the range) and there seems to be a lot of guys that want pretty non-functional grips - all of which explains why they like to shoot poofter loads.



329pd information

 

[ncy54]

Nice site with great photo work and text concerning your 329pd.
What it reveals to me is:
1. This gun had problems from the factory that they never addressed and now you are dealing with as the owner.
2. Those blown out primers indicate either an ammo/load issue or some out-of-spec problem in the firing pin/backstrap face/cylinder.
I hope that you visited the recent "329pd ka-boom" posting, as it is a cautionary reminder of what we may deal with when we fire any handgun, especially a high powered one.
Lastly, I won't be drawn into an online argument about any statements that I made in response to your inquiry for information. These statements are mine, just as the others made in this thread belong to those posters. You can choose to accept or reject them as you wish.

 

[dla]

An update..

S&W turn around time was 8 days - pretty darned fast given that I'm in Oregon and they're in OuterPenciltuckySomeplace.

S&W replaced the blast shield, the barrel and the cylinder. They test fired it as well.

I'm not sure why either the barrel or cylinder were replaced - but maybe there was some sort of alignment problem. The replacement cylinder is Titanium BTW.

I haven't fired it yet as I just pulled it out of the FedEx box.

S&W's customer service is top-notch.

 

[Wayne M]

The only problems the exotic alloy guns have from the factory is the classic case of just because it can be done doesn't necessarily mean it should be done. A Form search will reveal that blast shield guns which are actually shot a lot are constantly being returned to replace the shields(which should also tell you a lot about the ability of the alloy itself to withstand the erosion/blast). If I was going to own one I'd have at least three: one to use, one in reserve, and one to have on the road for repair. Smith usually(USUALLY!) has good turn around time but in the end your revolver is an emergency weapon and emergencies could well happen while it's broke. As mentioned the erosion of steel or stainless steel topstraps is self limiting and NONE of the powders you speculate to be a culprit will cause trouble in the steel guns even after multiple thousands of rounds. You have a very nice, good gun but they are just not meant to take the beating of the other non alloy revolvers.

 

[dla]

I like shooting this revolver, so I would imagine that it will see 5K rounds before I'm bored with it. We'll see how it holds up. One really nice thing about S&W is that they'll support my purchase all the way - so I really don't care if the Blast Shield gets replaced every 1K rounds (I have plenty of other handguns).