.357 Magnum REG 657 Update

[DARE]

Documents

Two more documents from S&WHF. 1st is Potchernick's order for two .357 magnums. 2nd is S&W order form for Reg #657. No signature on that one.

 

[Doc44]

The S&W order form was filled out by the company after the order from Potchernick's was received. This was common practice unless the order form was received from the customer.

Bill Cross

 

[lestert357]

Admin Edit-
Terry,
Thanks for posting these upright. I scarfed up the code and moved it to the original post above.
Regards,
Lee J

 

[DARE]

Hmm

Thanks Bill, thanks Terry
So Bill, was it the norm for the order to be filled out by the customer? Someone said this order from Potchernick's was probably two guns for stock. Agent White would have qualified for law enforcement discount, but think you said it showed no discount for this one.
The order from Potchernick's did not specify rear sight or stocks. Maybe that was added after agent White got involved?
The signature really does look like Toepperwein. That would be a story. Famous exhibition shooter works at Potchernick's in San Antonio at age 66. (When he is not on the circuit).

 

[SWSC]

Since the 357 or 375 Reg Mag was new and became popular with the FBI suddenly, the LE discount wasn't known by everyone or customer did not want it "registered ".

 

[Hill536]

Perhaps:
TSHA | Toepperwein, Adolph [Ad]

Perhaps this will "Ad" to the discussion. Toepperwein's signature.

 

[29-1]

Perhaps this will "Ad" to the discussion. Toepperwein's signature.

This thread just keeps getting better and better.
Chuck

 

[Doc44]

Most of the .357s I have researched have the S&W order form filled out by the company after the order was received from the company ordering the revolver. If I remember correctly, S&W preferred orders come through dealers and distributors, but would accept orders from individuals.

There is no indication an affidavit was filed with S&W stating that REG. #657 was to be used by law enforcement and eligible for a discounted price.

Bill

 

[Hill536]

Just a thought ! What do you think about the issue of the revolvers timing being out of sorts that was something Toepperwein discovered rather than agent White.

5. Letter from Potchernick's dated Dec 11, 1936. States gun is the property of Jomer C White, c/o the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Customer is very much dissatisfied with it and says gun is out of time. Asks that it be corrected and returned immediately. Two date stamps, one says Rec'd Dec 15 1936. The other says Chg'd Dec 17 1936.

 

[DARE]

Toepperwein

I took a closer look at the return letter. It is on Potchernick's letterhead. Top left corner lists F L Toepperwein as president.
So not Ad signature most likely. Ad was a long time resident of the San Antonio area. Certainly seems possible that F L was a relative.

 

[DARE]

Little Brother

Ferdinand Lucian Toepperwein was the younger brother of Adolph. Source of info "Find a Grave".
Guess it is possible that Ad was involved in his brother's business.
So does the signature look like A or F L ?
Pretty good bet we have a letter signed by Ad's little brother.
I like it that Ad's brother was president of Potchernick's.

 

[SWSC]

Ferdinand Lucian "Fred" Toepperwein was Adolph "Ad" Topperwein"s brother. Pre WW1 through mid 1920s Fred owned then sold his high end
sportsman establishment in San Antonio. So it seems he became the President of Potchernicks. Thanks for sharing the rest of the document. I have an article somewhere about Fred. I will look

 

[SWSC]

Fred

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

5. Letter from Potchernick's dated Dec 11, 1936. States gun is the property of Jomer C White, c/o the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Customer is very much dissatisfied with it and says gun is out of time. Asks that it be corrected and returned immediately. Two date stamps, one says Rec'd Dec 15 1936. The other says Chg'd Dec 17 1936.

Probably because he was shooting full house 357's out of instead of using .38's for practice and saving the .357's for duty. The more things change, the more things remain the same. I can't imagine a registered magnum being anything but perfect in every way going by the posts here
Fascinating thread!!!

 

[SWSC]

From gangsters
To $8 theft

 

[SWSC]

Retired

 

[DARE]

Wow

You guys are amazing. This thread has been quite a journey for me. Pretty much everything I have learned, (which is quite a bit) has been from information y'all have found.
Wondering if this thread should be a notable thread. Looked at the process for nomination, but could not figure it out.
Seems to me like something others might be interested in.

 

[lestert357]

David, I just put a request in that this thread be added to the Notable Thread Index under the Pre-War .357 Magnum section. I'm sure Lee will add it when he gets time to review it.

 

[Hill536]

I think the comparison leads me to believe "F L's" signature is on the letter. "FL" seems to have his signatures character above his name. "AD" seems to have his below.

 

[DARE]

New Info

One of the documents I received from S&WHF was a letter from S&W to Potchernick's saying Reg # 658 was changed to Reg # 1275 and would probably ship before #657 (my gun). My two gun order was supposed to be #657 and #658. Wonder why the numbers were changed?
In the database, 658 is listed as shipped with a book signed by DB Wesson to Jim Smith. No shipping date.
1275 has no shipping date.
Seems like 1275 was probably shipped before 657. I guess guns were not shipped in order by Reg #.

 

[Doc44]

The .357 Magnum with REG. #658X13 [the X13 was added to the registration number per a note from D. B. Wesson (no explanation given)] was ordered by Harper & Reynolds for Jim Smith on October 30, 1935. It was held by S&W until Mr. Wesson returned from the west coast and eventually shipped on December 19, 1935.

The Magnum with REG. #1275 was shipped on July 28, 1936.

I am sure the story on REG. #658X13 would be fascinating, but I doubt if we will ever know more about it.

Bill Cross

 

[lestert357]

The .357 Magnum with REG. #658X13 [the X13 was added to the registration number per a note from D. B. Wesson (no explanation given)] was ordered by Harper & Reynolds for Jim Smith on October 30, 1935. It was held by S&W until Mr. Wesson returned from the west coast and eventually shipped on December 19, 1935.

The Magnum with REG. #1275 was shipped on July 28, 1936.

I am sure the story on REG. #658X13 would be fascinating, but I doubt if we will ever know more about it.

Bill Cross

So we know why REG 658 for the Potchernick's order was changed (already used) but apparently is wasn't changed to REG 1275 since REG 1275 did not ship until over 7 months later.

I assume then that REG 1275 did NOT ship to Potchernick's and (referring to the document attached below) that REG 658 was possibly changed to 275, not 1275. I can't confirm this with the database since REG 275 is not listed. Since I'm not positive of what the new number in the attachment is I also checked 276 and 278 which are not listed, and 273 which is listed as serial number 46503 with a 5" barrel but no further information (barrel length for the 2nd gun going to Potchernick's was supposed to be 6.5")

 

[lestert357]

Just received this update from Doc44, Bill Cross: "658 was changed to 275 and shipped to Potchernick's on November 27, 1935. The S&W order form shows 658 crossed out and 275 written below it".

So, in summary, Potchernick's order was for 2 .357 Magnums, a 5" which became REG 657 (the OP's gun which was shipped to Potchernick's on 12/24/35 and belonged to FBI Agent White), and a 6.5" which was initially assigned REG 658 but was changed to REG 275 and shipped to Potchernick's on 11/27/35. The database has been updated accordingly.

 

[DARE]

Started my research by ordering a letter for my RM.
Got info that the gun was owned by an FBI agent.
SWHF document named the agent as Jomer C White.
SWSC, Buford57and bigwheelzip came up with the idea that my agent was James C White.
SWSC spotted the Toepperwein signature on letter from Potchernick's and we learned that FL was president of Potchernick's and the younger brother of the famous exhibition shooter Ad.
The provenance of my RM is quite a bit richer because I got a little help from my friends.

 

[Buford57]

Started my research by ordering a letter for my RM.
Got info that the gun was owned by an FBI agent.
SWSC, Buford57and bigwheelzip came up with the idea that my agent was James C White.
SWSC spotted the Toepperwein signature on letter from Potchernick's and we learned that FL was president of Potchernick's and the younger brother of the famous exhibition shooter Ad.
The provenance of my RM is quite a bit richer because I got a little help from my friends.

Thanks for letting us share in the fun.

 

[DARE]

It's like a puzzle. 1st I get my letter saying gun shipped to Potchernick's in San Antonio, TX. Sights and stocks unknown. Appears to have been owned by an FBI agent in the San Antonio area. My 1st letter (actually got a 2nd one) was signed by Don Mundell. Guess Don was looking at the return letter to give me the info about the FBI connection.
Bill Cross tells me that gun was shipped with Magna stocks, square notch rear and McGivern front sight. Guess he was looking at the S&W order form or the invoice.
Order 5 documents from S&WHF.
Potchernick's order for two .357 Magnums, a 5" and a 6 1/2", both with McGivern front sight.
S&W order form for my gun.
Letter from S&W saying Reg # 658 changed to 275 and will ship sooner than 657.
Invoice for 657
Letter from Potchernick's saying gun is being returned. Property of Jomer C White c/o the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Gun out of time, please correct and return.
Would not know name of owner without the gun being returned to S&W. Guess the other way owner would be known is if gun was shipped to owner rather than a wholesaler.
SWSC, Buford57 and bigwheelzip come up with James C White as my FBI agent rather than Jomer.
Get lots of history about James C (Doc) White. Texas Ranger, FBI agent.
SWSC spots Toepperwein signature on Potchernick's return letter.
F L Toepperwein is president of Potchernick's and younger brother of the famous exhibition shooter Ad. The Toepperweins are a prominent family in 1930's San Antonio. Probably some family members are involved in the business. They have streets named after them.
Interesting that Reg #658 associated with my order. Probably a somewhat famous gun.
We added some things to the .357 pre-war database. #275 is now known to have been shipped to Potchernick's with a shipping date. We have a shipping date for #1275. My gun, #657 is also there.
Got a 2nd letter on my gun signed by Roy Jinks. Lists more about how the gun was equipped and $39 wholesale price. Before I had heard $60 retail and $48 law enforcement discount.
Also got to deal with "big wigs" Bill Cross and Terry Lester.

 

[DARE]

Got a response today to my FOIA request to the FBI. About 800 or so pages.
Nothing that tied my gun to the agent.
Saw some examples of James C White signature. Did not look like Jomer.
There was a lot of correspondence with J Edgar Hoover, would say that they were friends, especially in later years.
Doc had a few health issues. Had some green color blindness that caused a recommendation that he not participate in raids. Was diabetic and had ulcers. An invalid wife was the reason for his retirement in 1947.
There were mentions of a few firearms. A Colt .45 auto, a Colt detective spl and the .351 rifle that he took from Baby Face Nelson, and later killed bad guy Gibson with.
Did a couple of different requests, so do not know if any other info will come.
James C White was stationed in San Antonio with the FBI during the period we are interested in. Don't think there was any other agent with a similar name that it could have been.

 

[ddixie884]

Very cool, thanx for sharing......

 

[DARE]

.357 Magnum REG 657 Update II

Wanted to share a couple of things from the FOIA request.

A list of the capability of Agents assigned to the San Antonio office to operate an automobile. Dated 6/6/36. Seven agents on the list. Assume there were no agents that could not operate an automobile, so think there were seven agents in San Antonio at that time. No names similar to Jomer C White, except J C White.

An example of James C White signature.

A couple of pages about the .351 rifle that Doc took from Baby Face Nelson and later used to kill Russell Gibson.

To me, it is clear that James C (Doc) White was the owner of my gun. Would be interested in hearing any other theories.

 

[DARE]

James C (Doc) White

A few more interesting docs.

An account of a murder that was solved by the agent.

A statement by the agent regarding going to Juarez, Mexico with the governor of Oklahoma and the chief of the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation.

A couple of accounts by E J Connelley of shoot outs agent White was involved in with big time gangsters.

Imagine my pics will not be upright and probably out of order. Maybe someone could fix that. I am very challenged in the technical area.