38/44 Heavy Duty converted to 45 Colt

[PattonTime]

I am wondering if anyone else has seen such an animal. I got it at Cabela's
today and I am now concerned whether it is safe to shoot.
It is also odd in that the hammer , trigger and stocks were replaced with new style stuff,I believe from the Thunder Ranch or some similar new style N-Frame.
The frame , barrel and cylinder number to each other and appear to be genuine.
The barrel and cylinder are bored to 45 caliber and seem way too thin, but I am comparing to my 38/44 HD that is 38 Special of course.
The work seems to be done professionally but I am really having second thoughts about owning it.

 

[Lee Barner]

a guy named mike had one done by bowen a couple years ago. don't know if he has shot it, but maybe he will see this and respond. any marks on the recoil shield that would indicate that it's been fired with
.45 ammo? if i recall, his gun had pretty thin looking chamber wall and barrel. i don't know if bowen or others mark their conversions somehow, but i would look under the grips for any "new" looking stampings. lee

 

[Jim Watson]

This is a fairly routine conversion and I have not heard of one failing with reasonable loads.
A friend did three of them in the 1970s and they were good shooters. He is long deceased and I sure wish I could track down the M27 conversion rechambered to .45 Colt and with a M26 barrel, that one was as good looking as it was functional.

 

[john traveler]

Years ago, conversions of M28 Highway Patrolmans and .38-44 to .45 Colt were in fashion because of the unavailability of S&W factory .45 Colt revolvers.

A much safer conversion would be to .44 Special with it's much thicker chamber walls.

The limiting factor was usually the depth of the cylinder locking notches. If the measured depth would leave a .45 Colt chamber with less than 0.025" or 0.030" chamber wall thickness, the gunsmith would (usually) decline to do the conversion.

As for how thick the barrel walls have to be, the late P.O. Ackley proved in his experiments that a .30-06 rifle barrel turned down to 0.080" thickness over the chamber and 0.020" at the muzzle was enough to contain military ammunition loaded to 40,000 psi.

Aside from some careful measurements with a micrometer, I dunno know how you could tell if the conversion was safe. Maybe fire it, and if the locking notches dimpled, you could say, "OOPS! It wasn't safe to fire!" But that would not be very assuring.

 

[DCWilson]

Wouldn't a bored out .38 or .357 N-frame cylinder have the same wall thickness as a 25-5 cylinder, or a 1917 or .455 Triple Lock for that matter? If they don't come apart under standard loads, I don't know why this one would.

If this is a prewar Heavy Duty rather than a postwar non-model marked gun, maybe here could be a small metallurgical issue. But that doesn't feel like a major concern to me.

Just thinking out loud. I would welcome the education if there are in fact solid reasons to worry about a conversion like this.

 

[john traveler]

Throughout the long and glorious production history of S&W N frame revolvers, the depth of the cylinder locking bolt cuts varied considerably from one model, one caliber, and one production run to another.

It appeared that in .38 Spl and .357 Magnum calibers, at least, that because of the considerably thicker chamber walls than on .455, .45, or .44 cylinders, the machine operators were less careful about their setups and fixtures than they could have been. Therefore, you get a wide tolerance in depth of cut between these calibers.

 

[Dave T]

A much safer conversion would be to .44 Special with it's much thicker chamber walls.

No offense but I don't see the reasoning here. A 44 Special N-frame cylinder is, for all practical purposes, the same diameter as a 38/44 or 357 Mag cylinder. Except for the possibility of deeper bolt cuts as mentioned above, there would be no advantage to using a 44 Special.

And I must say, what a waste of perfectly good 38/44s, not to mention the sacrilege of doing this to a 44 Special! (GASP!!!)

Dave

 

[DCWilson]

Throughout the long and glorious production history of S&W N frame revolvers, the depth of the cylinder locking bolt cuts varied considerably from one model, one caliber, and one production run to another.

It appeared that in .38 Spl and .357 Magnum calibers, at least, that because of the considerably thicker chamber walls than on .455, .45, or .44 cylinders, the machine operators were less careful about their setups and fixtures than they could have been. Therefore, you get a wide tolerance in depth of cut between these calibers.

A good point, and I should have thought of it without help. I hereby impose a posting moratorium on myself until I finish the second cup of coffee. Not that that is guaranteed to insure posting excellence; it just nudges the odds a bit in the proper direction.

 

[signsrup]

Here is a link to the Bowen conversion. http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-s...ersion-45-colt-colt-45-saa-model-41-sold.html

It just sold in the classifieds. Knowing who did the conversion would ease MY mind. And if you wanted, i'm sure Bowen, or one of the other big-bore specialists would inspect it for you.

 

[Jack Flash]

Per the Speer Manual:

SAAMI Specs for .38 Spl 17,000 psi
SAAMI Specs for .45 Colt 14,000 psi

This of course doesn't prove anything, but the fact that the revolver was converted to a lower pressure round should give you some peace of mind. Just don't go shooting any "Ruger Only" loads in it.

 

[PattonTime]

38/44 To 45 Colt

Thanks for all the input. The comment about pressures of both rounds is
probably the most important to me.I have to admit , thinking about Bowen's work is probably what pushed me towards buying it. I saw several examples of his at the last Mn Weapons Collecters Show They were priced at many times what I gave for this gun. I thought it odd that Cabelas would even have such a beast in their "Gun Library" you would think they would be concerned about liability. I will try to get some photos posted , when you compare it to my existing 38/44 I believe you will see why I am nervous about shooting it.

 

[Muley Gil]

"Wouldn't a bored out .38 or .357 N-frame cylinder have the same wall thickness as a 25-5 cylinder, or a 1917 or .455 Triple Lock for that matter?"

Triple Lock cylinders are slightly smaller in diameter than later N frame models. They were offered in .45 Colt, .38-40, .44-40, and .455, as well as .44 Special.

I believe the late Major George Nonte wrote about a converted M28 (to .45 Colt) that actually broke through at one of the cylinder notches. He fired it (remotely) and it held up. He declined to fire it in his hand, however.

 

[Jack Flash]

I would shoot it. The most cautious course may be to shoot it at first with "Cowboy Loads" ie, those light loads made for Cowboy Action Shooting-type games. A lot of companies make these. Shoot these loads through each chamber, being on the lookout for anything amiss, especially hard extraction or the like. If everything is fine, I would go ahead and shoot standard .45 Colt loads in it.

It doesn't surprise me that Cabella's would sell it for much less than what you see them priced at elsewhere. Cabella's pricing is all over the map. Sometimes they want a fortune for something very common, sometimes they give away something rare. As far as safety goes, they probably think it's safe to shoot, but whether they had a real gunsmith look it over or just had a flunky glance at it and say "uhh, looks ok to me!" who knows?

Naturally, S&W made many K-Frames chambered in .38 Special when your 38/44 was manufactured. How thick are the walls on the smaller K-Frame cylinder? Remember, the standard .38 Special is loaded to higher pressures than the .45 Colt. On top of this, your revolver was originally designed to handle loads more powerful (ie, higher pressure) than standard .38 Specials.

In The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, it states that 12 of these revolvers were chambered in .45 Colt at the factory and some of these were shipped in 1938 to law enforcement. Not that I'm suggesting that yours is one of these, but that obviously S&W thought the design was safe for the .45 Colt.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I went and measured my 25-2, 25-5, 25-7 cylinders for overall outside diameter. They were as follows-
25-2=1.714"
25-5=1.712"
25-7=1.713"

The walls between chambers were an average of .067".

The outside wall dimension at the thinnest point measure .066" average on all three guns.

The cylinder stop notches measure an average of .045" on the 25-7, and .040" on the 25-2 & 25-5.

That leaves .021" ave. on the 25-7, and .026" ave. for the 25-2, and 25-5 at the locking notch.

The 25-2 is from 1980, the 25-5 is from 1987, and the 25-7 is from 1989, just to give an idea of time frame that they span.


I have fired many loads that are developing 23,000-25,000 psi in all three guns, and have never jugged a locking notch. If your numbers are anywhere near mine, you should be safe to the same levels, since the cylinder in the .38/44 was heat treated to take these fairly high pressure rounds (about 20,000 psi according to my source).

The single best article on handloading for the .45 Colt that I know of is in Handloader #217, by Brian Pearce. If you can get a back issue from Wolffe Publishing, you would be doing yourself a huge favor. It will help you understand this round very well, and what guns are capable of what pressures.

BTW, S&W rates the 25-2/625 for +P loads at 23,000 psi.

 

[john traveler]

My recollection of the N frame that the late Major Nonte blew up was a Model 20 in .38 Special that he rechambered to .45 Colt. His description of the blowup was that the fired chamber let go at the bolt locking notch and blew the walls off the upper three chambers, leaving unfired cartridges in the adjacent chambers. He also provided a picture of the blownup gun with the bulged topstrap and the blown open cylinder.

Such a blowup is characteristic of revolver cylinder failure when the chamber pressure exceeds the "hoop strength" of the cylinder, and the failure initiates at the weakest point: the bolt stop cuts. When chamber pressure exceeds the yield strength of the steel cylinder, rupture invariable starts at the bottom of the cut where it is thinest.

It is for this reason that a competent conversion gunsmith will evaluate the intended conversion with careful measurements of the bolt stop cuts. If he doesn't recommend the conversion or declines to do it, there must be good reasons!

One last point: the often-quoted chamber pressure for so-and-so load in so-and-so caliber being safe for so-and-so gun are only GUIDELINES because the chamber pressures are based on measured AVERAGES. It is pressure spikes and PEAKS that cause gun damage. Such spikes and peaks can be caused by any number of variables in the reloading process: primer type, powder charge and type, bullet diameter, weight, hardness, jacket material, degree of crimp, ambient temperature, and so on. If any one or more of these variables combine to push an already maximum load past the elasticity limit of the steel cylinder, a gun blowup occurs. It is for these reasons that the cautious handloader avoids maximum loads to begin with, and understands the limitations of his gun and reloading abilities.

 

[2152hq]

Colt SAA cylinders are awfully thin when chambered to 45Colt. It's just understood by most normal people not to hotrod those,,nor any 357 Ruger OM conversions to 45Colt either as they have the same cyl. dia.
It was originaly a BP round afterall. Take it easy on them.

S&W made thousands of 1917's on the N frame before heat-treating came to be I believe and those contain the 20,000psi service pressures of the 45acp just fine. Unless of course somebody gets the smart idea to make a 45 Magnum out of one.

JT makes excellent points about the individual cylinder used in the conversion and it's bolt stop cuts, pressure figures,,,
and...
"It is for these reasons that the cautious handloader avoids maximum loads to begin with, and understands the limitations of his gun and reloading abilities. "....I couldn't agree with this more....

 

[Jack Flash]

Lots of interesting comments. I even agree with some of them.

I agree that SAAMI pressure figures don't tell everything about a cartridge, but they are valuable in a discussion like this comparing one cartridge to another. Like horsepower in a discussion about car engines, it gives a basis for discussing one cartridge relative to another.

I have only been talking about factory loads so far, but I see no reason not to use handloads, even loaded to the max, as long as the handloader uses published loads from reliable sources and follows standard reloading procedures. This means work up to the max carefully and slowly, and never exceed the max. Of course, I'm talking standard loads, not those labeled "Ruger Only". As another has stated, the .45 Colt is a low-pressure round, originally a black powder load. Sure, don't hotrod it, but don't be afraid to load it to the max listed in a reputable reloading manual. Its max is still relatively low-pressure.

 

[PattonTime]

38/44 To 45 Colt

If any one is interested , this gun is now available at the Cabelas in Rogers, MN
I took them up on their offer to take it back.
I would guess that it is safe, but was not as interested as I thought in something so experimental. Without knowing who did the conversion,
and the fact that the gun while nicely "refurbished" was far from mint.
I just couldn't get excited about keeping it.
It did have however, as sweet a double action trigger as I have ever pulled,
in that way that only a N-frame Smith can have.
Price by the way was marked $595.00 they had sold to me at $575.00

 

[BlackAgnes]

When I embarked upon an HD to .45 Colt conversion, the first thing I did was to have the barrel reamed and rifled to .45.

The next step was to find a M25 cylinder and have it fitted. This offers some peace of mind about using .45 Colt factory loads in the gun--and these cylinders are not difficult to find in either the short (25-3) or long (25-5) versions.

Tim

 

[Michael Stern]

Bowen Conversions

High on the list of Guns I Wish I Hadn't Sold or Traded are these 38-44s converted to 45 Colt by Hamilton Bowen. A pre-war Outdoorsman:

and a post-war HD: