38 HBWC woes...

[mainegrw]

I bought a coffee can of 148gr cast lead HBWC bullets (about 500 count) from a local shop a couple years ago for $10, and last year, mostly out of bordem due to the pandemic, I sized them (they were a bit bigger than .357 on average, rather up to .365"), and loaded them. They were alox coated already, and a bit sticky, so I didn't bother to add additional lubrication. Loading was done with 3.9gr HP-38 or 2.8gr of 700-X with CCI 500 primers.

I am now getting around to shooting these loads, and have found quite a bit of excessive leading on my revolvers, and the loading feels a but stout, compared to other loadings in done. These loads are based on data from Hornady's reloading database, or out of a "One Book, One Caliber" book on 38 special I have, with loads culled from a variety of sources. Specifically the leading is worse with the HP-38 loading, leaving lead spatter on the forcing cone and all the way out to the outside of the cylinder. This has occurred on multiple revolvers (a model 28-2 just back from S&W service for timing correction, a 27-2, and a 15-2), all with similar results, so pretty sure it's not timing issues. I also have loading with plated DEWCs that shooting just fine in all of the above as well. Yesterday, while shooting my 27-2, I found additional lead flaking in the chambers as well.

So the question I guess I have is: did I push these a little too hot? Would that account for the excessive leading I have?

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[Kurusu]

You should not have sized them. Specially if using a Smith & Wesson revolver.

 

[mainegrw]

You should not have sized them. Specially if using a Smith & Wesson revolver.

I had to. I checked a bunch first, and loaded a small batch around the time I had bought them. I had found some were too big to insert into the chamber when loaded in cases.

Should I have resized to .358 instead of .357?

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[Kurusu]

How big were they? Generally you can use up to .360 with no problems. In fact they are more accurate that way on my model 14.

Edit. Maybe you can make them stop leading if you relube them with liquid alox. It worked for me with some lousy 158 gr bullets that I bought, I didn't even remove the wax lube they had, just aloxed them over. I diluted the Alox with mineral spirits, it works best that way. And lasts longer.

 

[oysterer]

I had to. I checked a bunch first, and loaded a small batch around the time I had bought them. I had found some were too big to insert into the chamber when loaded in cases.

Should I have resized to .358 instead of .357?

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yes, never seen a lead bullet sized at 357

 

[IrishFritz]

Hard to say what's going on for sure but here's a few thoughts: my belief is that Wadcutters are usually considered to be low-moderate velocity projectiles and as such they should be cast fairly soft , BHN 9-10 or so. Cast bullets generally speaking should be sized at or slightly over cylinder throat diameter as well. Since you don't know what temper the bullets are it is possible they may be too hard to readily expand at wadcutter pressures and if the bullets are not sized to throat diameter then it is possible that you have a condition of powder gas blow-by causing the lead to liquify and be splashed back on the cylinder face and the forcing cone. Unfortunately there are other possible causes as well but bullet diameter and temper kind of stand out. Hope you figure it out- IrishFritz

 

[max503]

Seems it would be difficult to accurately measure a sticky-lubed boolit. Did you clean it off first with solvent?

 

[Old_Cop]

I initially thought that the HP38 load seemed a little high, but the Hodgdon site listed up to 4.0 grains for 953 fps. Still while under the pressure limit I think that the velocity is well above the 750 fps that most target shooters might want.

 

[6string]

There's a couple of strange things here.
First, are these really cast hollow base wadcutters? Almost every cast bullet wadcutter mold I've seen or used is for a solid base bullet. There are hollow base molds, but they are a bit rare. They can also be quite problematic.
If your bullets are indeed hollowbase, are they possibly swaged rather than cast?
Second, did you slug any of your cylinder throats? As a rule, you want to size your bullets to match or perhaps .001-.002" over. But,success is dependent on bore diameter being the same as throat diameter, or .001" under. If there's a problem with the match between cylinder throats and bore diameter, that needs to be addressed separately or you will never realize full success with any cast bullet.
Third, are you certain of that .365" diameter? That's way oversized for any 38/357 bullet. It's even oversized for the older 38 S&W. This suggests that the bullets were cast from an out of spec mold, or were cast with the wrong alloy (if they were in fact cast and not swaged.). In any case, sizing a lead bullet down .008" is excessive. Besides leading, I'm sure the accuracy was nothing to write home about.

What velocity are you getting from those loads? Hollow base bullets shouldn't be pushed. The skirt can detach in the bore creating an obstruction. There are many used K-38 revolvers (and M52s) out there with ringed or bulged barrels because somebody fired a round into a barrel obstructed with a detached wadcutter skirt.
This is much harder to detect while shooting than a simple squib.

 

[gwpercle]

If all are sized .357" ( I size mine .358") then try adding a good lube .
Tumble lube an extra coat and see if that helps .
Also take pains to insure the bullets don't get squeezed down by the brass case during loading ... deep seating in a tightly resized case can size the bullet down even smaller and a small bullet is prone to lead .
Sometimes when loading deep seated WC's I only size the first 1/4" of case to hold the bullet , the rest of the bullet is then usually not squeezed down any smaller by the unsized case main body ... might try that also .
2.7 grains of Bullseye is usually a non-leader ...just saying .
Are these cast bullets hard or soft and are they cast Hollow Base Wadcutters ? There may be other factors . Hard undersized bullets lead like crazy .
Good luck .
Gary

 

[rockquarry]

I doubt you'll see much difference in most S&Ws with bullets sized to either .357" or .358". In most cylinders, a .358" bullet that is truly .358" in diameter (measured with a micrometer, not a caliper) will not come close to passing though a chamber throat unless you hammer it through.

After much experimenting with this, I've been running everything through a .357" die for all my S&W and Colt revolvers. Generally, accuracy is slightly better with the smaller diameter bullet. But, .358" bullets are usually close enough accuracy-wise that this becomes not much more than a hair-splitting exercise. Use what you have available; it will probably work well.

 

[boatbum101]

.357 for Colt OMM & S&W 52 , Colt 1911 38 Special guns . Cast HBWC were somewhat more common 50 - 60 yrs ago . I had a mold , short story quality swaged is king . Casting HBWC is a PITA , more so than HP's . Throats on revolver should be checked & reamed / honed as needed & bullets sized accordingly .
Your HP 38 load is a bunch warmer than needed . Classic Bullseye / PPC load for Win 231 / HP 38 is 3.1 grs with a 148 HBWC , like the 2.7 grs Bullseye load . 700X IIRC 2.5 - 2.7 grs is the ticket . For HBWC best accuracy 700 - 750fps , cast 800fps .

 

[AJ]

In the past I have picked up several good deals on reloading stuff from the LGS. In those good deals were several different 148 grain HBWC's, these were lubed with either alox or a graphite type of lube (have to wear a glove so my fingers don't turn black). I have never sized any of them. I generally load them with 2.8 grains of Bullseye. I use them in my Model 52, my 27-2, Pre-14, and my Victory Model, I have not noted any leading in any of those guns.

 

[bluetopper]

3.9gr of HP-38 is a bit much in my opinion for a swaged HBWC. Even if you sized the bullets a fraction small the bullet will expand to fit the bore, that's what a hollow base bullet is designed to do. Load some at 3.0 to 3.2 then get back with us.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Not always, but in general, if the load will fit into the revolvers cylinder.....
it should be good to go for the forcing cone.

As for the amount of powder that you first tried......
it is ok in your big K frames but in my little J frame, that load is a "Full Load"
that comes with lots of recoil.

I agree with a load at 3.1 & 3.3 to see if things improve with your leading problems.

 

[sndbggr1484]

Like Boatbum101 said, 2.7 grains of Bullseye is the standard but when using 231/HP38 most use 3.0-3.1 grains to match the Bullseye load using a 148 grain HBWC bullet. Most commercial bullets are sized from .357 to .360 diameter.

 

[4barrel]

Alox can add .004 or so when measuring. The 2.9 of 700x you used should not have leaded. I have run mine at 3.1 with good results.-- 3.9 of HP38 is too hot for a hbwc. 820 is about the limit with a hbwc. It is normal to see a little lead above the forcing cone and on the cylinder face. It comes off easy enough. My Speer book is 3.2 of HP38 @804 fps with a max load.

 

[mtgianni]

Resizing would have been cause to relube them. I got best results when shooting hbwc I used to cast sized to 0.359".

 

[AJ]

There's a couple of strange things here.
First, are these really cast hollow base wadcutters? Almost every cast bullet wadcutter mold I've seen or used is for a solid base bullet. There are hollow base molds, but they are a bit rare. They can also be quite problematic.

Yes, there really Hollow Based Wadcutters. I have never seen a mold for one,so can't say if they are a problem to cast with. I have a hollow point mold for .38's that works well. Some folks used the Hollow Based Wadcutters for defensive loads by turning the bullet over and loading it in the casing backwards, made a heck of looking hollow point bullet.

AJ

 

[smithra_66]

I bought a coffee can of 148gr cast lead HBWC bullets (about 500 count) from a local shop a couple years ago for $10, and last year, mostly out of bordem due to the pandemic, I sized them (they were a bit bigger than .357 on average, rather up to .365"), and loaded them. They were alox coated already, and a bit sticky, so I didn't bother to add additional lubrication. Loading was done with 3.9gr HP-38 or 2.8gr of 700-X with CCI 500 primers.

I am now getting around to shooting these loads, and have found quite a bit of excessive leading on my revolvers, and the loading feels a but stout, compared to other loadings in done. These loads are based on data from Hornady's reloading database, or out of a "One Book, One Caliber" book on 38 special I have, with loads culled from a variety of sources. Specifically the leading is worse with the HP-38 loading, leaving lead spatter on the forcing cone and all the way out to the outside of the cylinder. This has occurred on multiple revolvers (a model 28-2 just back from S&W service for timing correction, a 27-2, and a 15-2), all with similar results, so pretty sure it's not timing issues. I also have loading with plated DEWCs that shooting just fine in all of the above as well. Yesterday, while shooting my 27-2, I found additional lead flaking in the chambers as well.

So the question I guess I have is: did I push these a little too hot? Would that account for the excessive leading I have?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

These should be loaded to around 750 fps. No more. If you're loading them "stout," it's not a good idea. HBWC's are almost always soft, swaged lead that is made for bullseye shooting. All you need to do is get the pressure high enough to have the skirts open in the barrel to engage the rifling tight. Any more pressure and you're going to deform the skirts and create leading problems.

Try 2.7 gr. of Bullseye and you'll be happy! if you have leading from these types of bullets, it's usually a very simple cleanup using the Lewis Lead Remover system (highly recommended).