38 S&W - 4FG

[Colorado68]

Hello,
I have a very nice condition 2nd model DA top break in 38 S&W (short) which is BP rated, not smokeless.
Am planning to load new Starline cases with 145g Missouri LRN and FFFFG Goex or Swiss which I have on-hand.
Wondering if anyone is loading this round using 4F and could post results?
Or, should I stick with 3F? I undertand these new cases hold a little less powder than the old ones did and why my thoughts to go with 4F.
Thank you.

 

[DWalt]

What’s the problem with smokeless? Factory smokeless loads are purposely loaded to low pressures and can be used safely in any of the old top breaks. And you can handload to the same pressure levels as factory. BP is too dirty and messy for me. Keep in mind that .38 S&W smokeless loads have been factory loaded and sold since the mid-1890s. And I have never heard of a break top revolver blowing up. I have been using light smokeless loads in my two old top breaks for nearly 50 years without incident. See https://smith-wessonforum.com/threads/38-s-w-load-data.713667/page-2

 

[gwpercle]

Black powder rule of thumb is to fill case with powder to the base of the bullet so you have light powder compression when the bullet is seated and crimped .
Crimp the bullet well for black powder loading to get a complete and clean burn .
A little compression on the powder is okay and desired but you don't want a heavy compressed load .
In the small 38 S&W case you can use either 3F or 4F power...
I would test both and see if one performs better or burns cleaner than the other .
Good call on loading black powder ammo for the 2nd model DA Top Break ... it was made pre 1900 and is not rated for smokeless ... the black powder loads should work fine .
My Loading Thoughts ... Better Safe Than Sorry !
Gary

 

[glowe]

There is no design or material changes from a pre to post 1898 38 DA other than the trigger mechanism, only a lot of misinformation . Reloading smokeless powder is actually very simple. Go to powder websites and find any load for this caliber and it will be lower pressure than factory black powder loads. Liability is the biggest issue with loading these old calibers. Easier yet, find a box of Winchester, Remington, etc. and shoot it. European smokeless ammo is often labeled 38 Corto (Spanish for Short).

Cleaning black powder requires soap and water, a combination that is not good for internals and will leak into the works. Over time it can cause obvious problems, but so can not thoroughly cleaning a BP fired gun.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The original load is a 146 grain .361" bullet over 15 grains by volume of FFFg back Powder. Expect o get around 700 fps.

Black Powder fouling is a much bigger concern than barrel leading so a BP bullet lube should be used. Fortunately, Crisco will do. Just smear some on the outside of the bullet when loading. This is a handy cool weather solution. 50/50 Crisco/Paraffin usually works and doesn't melt out of the gun before firing in hotter weather. If that is too soft add a higher percentage of paraffin.

Standard primers work fine.

For smokeless I use 2.8 of WW231/HP38 in all my top breaks (S&W, H&R, & Iver Johnson.

Ivan

 

[bruce381]

I use 2.2 gr 231 with a 160gr bullet in NON break top Model 33

 

[Colorado68]

Thanks for the replies folks. I know a lot of people reload with smokeless and light loads that work fine, but my preference is to use BP.
I love the smoke and smell. Am using a 55/45 beeswax/olive oil for my lube. The old BP loads advertised 15g of powder, don't know how they got that much in unless it was really compressed. I'd be afraid of bulging primers.

 

[glowe]

Do not compress BP beyond the 1/16" for ALL cartridge loadings. The old 38 S&W started life as what I believe was a balloon case. It had much more space that today's brass as shown below. Compare the 44-40 cross sections below.

Anything petroleum based is a no-no for BP shooters. It binds with the powder residue and quickly makes a sticky mess. Paraffin is a petroleum based product. Get a chunk of Bee's wax and melt it with Crisco. A quick alternative is to purchase SPG lube, melt a small amount and dip the loaded bullet in it.

 

[Colorado68]

Do not compress BP beyond the 1/16" for ALL cartridge loadings. The old 38 S&W started life as what I believe was a balloon case. It had much more space that today's brass as shown below. Compare the 44-40 cross sections below.

Anything petroleum based is a no-no for BP shooters. It binds with the powder residue and quickly makes a sticky mess. Paraffin is a petroleum based product. Get a chunk of Bee's wax and melt it with Crisco. A quick alternative is to purchase SPG lube, melt a small amount and dip the loaded bullet in it.

View attachment 753662

Thank you for that cross section showing the differences, glowe. My compression is 1/16" and am using natural beeswax and olive oil mix. I measure by volume to 1/16" above final bullet seating base. That volume weighs out at 10g with 3F. Using the same method to measure with 4F, I only get 8.5 to 9g by weight which confuses me as the 4F is finer and I though would be denser.