.38 S&W

[Chubbo]

Hi, All
After reading about the .38 S&W Lemon Squeezersin the antique thread, and members shooting them I have become interested in shooting the one that I have. It seems to be in time, and locks up right. What would be a light loaded ammo to try in this old revolver?
Chubbo

 

[65kaiser]

This ammo is tough to find.

 

[TACC1]

As stated, the ammo is hard to find, but the OldWesternScrounger
has listings for it. I got a couple boxes from GunBroker.
People responding to your question about safe to shoot modern
ammo or not, have advised that the makers of ammo keep
the power down so it won't wreck the older guns it gets used in.
I've been using standard ammo, but I understand that cowboy
loads are lighter yet.
Hope this helps, see you at the range, TACC1.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The online stores like Sportsman's Guide, Cabela's and others have 146gr 38 S&W ammo most of the times but it's expensive. I reload for that caliber because the price of factory ammo is prohibitive.

Look on the pages I linked to and you will find Magtech and Remington 38 S&W ammo available.

Magtech Revolver .38 Special +p 125 Gr. Sjsp 50 Rds., Pistol Ammunition, Magtech at Sportsman's Guide

Remington Handgun .25 Acp 50 Gr. Mc 50 Rds., Pistol Ammunition, Remington at Sportsman's Guide

 

[65kaiser]

I just checked that. "Not in stock" Lots of places list it but most do not have it. Pretty much thats the case all over. Tough to find.

 

[dkp9782]

Found some Fiocchi, called "38 short", but headstamped 38 S&W. New production. Fired it in my Victory model, and it was a lot hotter than some Federal I had along. Sounded and recoiled like a 38 special. Nothing scientific, just sound and felt recoil, so I dunno. just an FYI. Probably not so good for older revolvers...

 

[dabump]

I've had good luck finding the ammo at gun shows from "private" manufacturers. When you find one, get his phone numberfor future orders. They know the guns need a light load, based on my inquiries. Some of them will sell and ship. I think you will enjoy shooting the S&W .38 due to its accuracy and light recoil.

 

[Chubbo]

I thought I had dies to load for .38 S&W after going through 21 sets of dies, ifound an Ideal Tong tool in .38 S&W, but, it is incomplete. I will have to look for brass and dies also, as I load for everything that I shoot. Thanks for the info.
Chubbo

 

[TSQUARED]

Hi, All
After reading about the .38 S&W Lemon Squeezersin the antique thread, and members shooting them I have become interested in shooting the one that I have. It seems to be in time, and locks up right. What would be a light loaded ammo to try in this old revolver?
Chubbo

If you could use some factory ammo and new primed brass PM me.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Chubbo,

Maybe I'm one of those to blame for you wanting to shoot that revolver I shoot mine & love developing new loads for them. You may have seen the links to my "penetration tests," etc. from this spring.

I won't try to judge the condition of the gun, but ammo is just simply not a problem if you reload. Heck, I'm keeping some of my .38 S&W's and selling a bunch of others, and I have hundreds of once-fired Starline cases you could talk me out of & that would probably keep you shooting for a very long time. Don't know if Starline currently has them in stock or not--worth checking. Also Remington and Magtech are often available from MidwayUSA.

Speer 13 specifically states that they used regular .358 bullets to work up their loads, so bullets generally aren't a problem for practical shooting. If the groove diameter of your revolver is too large for that solution, you can buy cast bullets of the correct size or cast your own. I started casting just last year, and have made up tons (OK, OK, quite a few pounds of bullets. You could talk me out of a bunch. Better yet, buy an inexpensive Lee mold and make your own. Don't know if you cast or not; I'm 51 and just started a year ago, and mine are just fine. The real pros can do some black magic with casting, but if you're smart enough to reload, you're smart enough to do basic casting & get satisfactory results. Some of my loads, with my own cast bullets, have less than 10 fps standard deviation; one 215g bullet is UNDER 5 FPS SD. Believe me, I'm NOT a magician.

With brass and bullets, common pistol powders and SP primers, just buy a set of $26 Lee dies from MidwayUSA and you're in business. Easy to reload--not a tricky cartridge.

For my solid-framed guns, I load practice ammo that's a factory duplication load with a 140g Lee SWC I cast. I also cast several other bullets, such as 200g and 215g heavyweights, plus a Lee .358-158. They all do fine. For yours, I'd just load down the factory duplication load a bit. If you get a solid-framed gun, heck, you can shoot 200g bullets that duplicate the original British Army cartridge of the early 1930s, and it's no slouch in the "heavy & slow" category.

If you were trying to select a target revolver, it wouldn't be a great caliber to select because of past issues with different groove diameters in different guns. But as functional revolvers for close-range work, even lemon-squeezer ranges, this is NOT a problem. It's also no problem for the reloader and/or caster, if you're setting up for one gun. You don't have to worry about interchangeability then. You're micro, not macro, and I believe most complaints about the .38 S&W are macro.

Believe me, I'm not trying to sell you a thing, I just think that the .38 S&W has an undeservedly bad reputation for all the wrong reasons. It's ONLY a problem for someone who doesn't reload. It was a highly successful cartridge "back in the day" for a reason--actually, for several reasons--and for most of us, those reasons still apply today. Home defense? Self defense? With a solid-frame revolver, this isn't a problem either, if you believe that standard-pressure .38 SPL ammo is acceptable. Without getting radical on your loads, you can approach low-end .38 SPL ballistics. If you think there's something to heavy bullet solutions, you can cast 'em up, flatten the noses, and create a 200g near-wadcutter at 625-650 fps, and watch it shoot thru 6 jugs of water from a 2" barrel. . .If 36" of water is generally equivalent to 18" in ballistic gel, and all with a .280 meplat, well, it can shake 'em up, I reckon!

Happy shooting! Sorry for the wild-eyed rant

 

[walnutred]

LouisianaMan I tend to agree with you about 38 S&W and I occasionally carry one for CCW. Though when I do it's with surplus FN loaded ammo in the old British military configuration. While I've never done formal testing I firmly believe that 38 S&W in the old police load is better than 32 ACP ball ammo and at least as effective as 380 ball.

 

[LouisianaMan]

SHORT VERSION: I heartily agree, walnutred!

LONG VERSION (read at your own risk):

The British military FMJ I tested would penetrate a good deal and then tumble wickedly & forcefully. While I'm neither surgeon nor ballistician, I think that rapid tumbling motion gives a significantly greater wound channel--kind of like an expanding hollowpoint--and it seems more likely to impact nerve bundles that can create secondary effects on the target.

If bone is struck by 178g FMJ, the old 200g Super Police, or definitely a flatpointed 200g bullet, I think it would have far greater effect than any .32 or .380 impacting the same way. Much more tendency to smash through than to drill thru (like FMJ often does) or possibly stop (perhaps with JHP in the compact autos).

Many commentators recommend the .38 SPL wadcutter for a light-recoiling self-defense load, considering that it cuts a broader hole than FMJ rounds (except perhaps some that begin with a "4"). The wadcutters also penetrate deep. So, let's see, that's a 148g .358 diameter bullet at about 700 fps, right? Factory-loaded .38 S&W is 145g or 146g LRN at 685 or so. Almost precisely the same. The only difference? The inefficient round-nose bullet profile! Flatten the point or make it a LSWC like my handloads, and it's a much better wounding agent--one would have to say practically identical to .38 SPL WC ammo.

Now, flatten the .38 S&W bullet nose to near-wadcutter meplat, beef it up to a 200g bullet, and reduce velocity to about 630-650 fps. What do you have but a parallel to factory .38 SPL semi-wadcutter (158g @ 770), but with greater momentum to carry through a target, and probably significantly better "target effects" on bone?

These aren't magnum numbers. But neither are .32s or .380s. And ALL of these calibers were internationally accepted as broadly suitable for civilian home defense, police and even military use for decades!

I'll hazard this SWAG. All of these "lesser" calibers were & are suitable for SD/HD against a threat who is not hell-bent to close with & destroy the defender. In the modern era, however, we have more problems with drug-crazed attackers, home invaders committed to violent assault, widespread gang violence, etc. For these BGs, it's not property they're after, it's YOU they're after. When the BG is specifically committed to that goal, he isn't as likely to be deterred by a warning, the display of a gun, defensive fire, or even multiple hits. At the high end of the fight or flight spectrum, when he is committed to your destruction, the BG can be stopped quickly enough only by CNS hits, certain skeletal structure hits (shattered thigh or hip come to mind), or massive & rapid bleeding caused by severe damage to key circulatory structures. Bigger holes, deeper penetration, and better wounding characteristics increase the odds of successful defense under those circumstances.

Some will say that a person's defensive posture is inadequate--or even ridiculous & irresponsible--unless he or she is armed with weapons & ammo geared to stop the totally committed attacker. My opinion is different. Since the huge majority of us never face such a situation, we arm ourselves to a lesser degree, and that is completely logical. On the spectrum of violent confrontation, almost all BG's are deterred by warning, display, shots, or hit(s). For those of us who don't live in a world of barroom fights, back alleys, and drug use, we are even less likely to face somebody totally committed to our destruction at all costs. Unless we are LEOs, we can take almost NO offensive role with our handguns, anyway, and we are not expected (or often even allowed) to pursue and subdue these BGs like LEOs are SWORN to do.

To those who may scoff at my argument for the validity of carrying smaller guns, less ammo, etc., I'll ask: why have the Army and Marine Corps traditionally equipped officers with a pistol and three magazines, whereas soldiers around them carried anywhere from 210 - 600+ rounds of ammo, rifle, and grenades? Because the officer's role is not usually to personally destroy the enemy. . .his job is to lead and coordinate, not serve as a rifleman. Thus, the officer's personal weapons are defensive. Also, rear area soldiers may take off helmets and body armor, carry far fewer weapons and less ammo, to facilitate doing their primary jobs: maintenance, transport, warehouse, etc. For those of us who aren't LEOs, security officers, or VIP escorts, the officer or rear-echelon soldier is the more valid analogy, not the combat infantryman.

And yes, sometimes officers and rear-echelon types get stuck in a situation in which they're outgunned, but that's as unavoidable in downright warfare as it is in our normal daily lives. It will always stink to be THAT GUY who gets struck by lightning on a clear day, with thousands of others nearby. . .but do we all stay inside?

I plead GUILTY to thread drift!!!!! Sorry, OP!

 

[nutsforsmiths]

I have bought Magtech, Remington and Fiocchi factory ammo and they all were fine in my top breaks.

I started reloading for three reasons.

The ammo is expensive.
It is hard to find.
I usually shoot at indoor ranges and most of the factory loads are with lead bullets.

I usually shoot 38 S&W out of the Victory, Terrier or Regulation Police that I own. I have shot them out of top breaks too, but not that often.

It's a neat load and very accurate.

 

[longranger]

2.0 gr Bullseye 148gr HBWC seated to 1.24" in .38 S&W is an outstanding load.The Remington HBWC are excellant in the .38 S&W.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Last I knew, Winchester still loaded it in their Super X line. No more expensive than any other non "Value" offering ammunition. Unlike the rest, the Winchester cases were still nickeled, at least when I last bought some. This can help in extraction in some of the rougher old top breaks.

The old British FMJ load had a terrible reputation for penetration and stopping power when used during the post war troubles in Africa. I think it was Dave Arnold, or another writer, that was there at the time that wrote about some of it. I've seen photos from the period where there was an FMJ sticking barely out of the barrel of an Enfield or Webley top break. An African terrorist tried to shoot a cop with it at point blank range, and the bullet failed to penetrate the great coat of the officer and lodged just out of the bbl. Maybe some of that had to do with bad QC of WW2 ammo, but I don't know that I'd really want to play around with any rendering of the old FMJ offering.

If one searches around, a couple of places still offer 200 grain ammo custom loaded, ostensibly for the old British top breaks. Whether one wants to use it in an old Smith and Wesson... shrug.

 

[walnutred]

LouisianaMan I've had a similar discussion with a good friend who is a County Prosecutor. He typically carries a much heavier caliber than I do, and rightly so in my opinion. He potentially faces the real risk of a PERSONAL attack from someone who is deliberately seeking him out. I on the other hand would probably only have to defend myself from someone who mistook me for an easy target. The times I felt there was the chance of a personal attack, I carried a 1911A1. These days I lean towards small convenient pocket pistols.