38 SA 2nd mod rust bucket

[Nicksterdemus]

Also known as Mod 2 second issue. As SN6050 this surely was manufactured in the first year of the second issue 1877-1891.

Extractor doesn't unless you count lifting the cylinder out of the frame and pressing the rod w/finger or against pants. However, it does still hold half/full cock and trigger/hand are functional. Couldn't have been the 1st mod baby Russian. Were it I never would have known w/M.O. of pistola ownership seemingly being distressed/common.

At half cock the cylinder spins freely though regardless of position the hand under a full cock will advance the cylinder to the next chamber. Hammer down locks cylinder as does full cock. Latch matches though cylinder only shows first three numbers and barrel as the last cylinder number is illegible due to rust.

In spite of oxidation the patent dates can be read from the barrel top. I like the last one toting 'reissue'.

The most interesting aspect is she sports the 'S&W.' monogrammed stocks in green though they tend to look black w/o proper light. Left stock wear pattern suggests southpaw usage more often than not. In keeping w/my tradition of collecting the bottom right stock is busted in a half moon exposing the bottom half of the frame pin.

Perhaps used one time too many on someone's noggin' to save ammo or merely friendly social persuasion.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Page 20 SCSW 3rd goes into a bit of detail on the top-break stocks.
"Most hard rubber stocks had molded checkering with the familiar intertwined S&W logo in the stock circle at the top of the panels. Some exceptions were the early .32 centerfire single action stocks which first had no logo, followed by a block letter, and finally the intertwined S&W logo. Another exception was the Baby Russian, whose stocks had a block letter S&W logo in the stock circles.

Red mottled stocks may also be found on all frame sizes produced in the era from about 1879 to about 1882. Blue and green mottled variations have been reported."

Page 76 on .32 frame 1 1/2 later model:
" and reissue July 25, 1871 have been observed c.1878-1892".

Page 80-81 shows 1st model/Baby Russian SN range 1-25548 c. 1876-1877.

Anywho, this 3 1/4" .38 could've come w/green stocks and being produced the following year after the Baby Russian it's no great leap to believe, if nothing else, that the Block letter S&W. stocks could be time period appropriate. I wasn't around and am not sure if counterfeit block style stocks were produced in a dull/dark green.

The reissue pat'd date on the top of the barrel coincides w/that noted on the .32 albeit this .38 should be first year 1877. One hundred and thirty-seven years presents plenty of opportunities to exchange parts.

Yet, the latch, frame and at least the first three of four serial numbers on cylinder face, 605, matching could suggest that the ole gal is in original trim. The time frame of these worn smooth molded checkered diamond stocks are an unknown variable to me. I don't have a clue. On the inside of the left panel there appears to be a pencil written '2'. Granted that's looking through the loupe w/light hitting it just right along w/attempting to make something legible out of what little is there. Take that interpretation w/grain of salt. Only thing under the right side is apparent file/grind marks on the top and bottom as if they were high and needed to be taken down a mite to fit snugly.

Last tidbit is also on page 80. The lone picture of a 1st model Baby Russian, a second model and a third model. Look at the bottom of the stocks on the first model. There is a gentle curve w/o checkering. This is a quite different pattern than those on the 2nd model. Yet, both are of S&W. block style. The first model type shown are the same as mine though I can't tell if the pair in the picture are green. Here's two more pics of the left side at differing shutter speed in an attempt to highlight the dark olive green colour that isn't mottled.

As always I'm all ears for other opinions. I know little about S&W and nothing about stocks. Except that these will interchange w/my MOP off of model 1903 .32. There's a small "ridge" of back strap exposed on the 1903 running the length of the stock and the bottom of the top break stocks are beveled from the start where the MOP starts flush and then rounds up.

Also the grip pin is slightly larger in diameter on the 1903. The top break would slide on, upside down, only half way and I didn't wish to push the issue on the good stock. Not surprisingly the chipped stock slid right on. Perhaps I've uncovered the true story behind the right side missing chip. The stock screws threads are not interchangeable though they are close and the 1903 is longer w/more threads as well. Assuming both of the screws are original.

I'm at the end of the road. I'm looking at a pair of hard rubber, I'm guessing, olive green molded checkering w/diamond, brass escutcheon stocks that have the block type 'S&W.' inside the circle, yet they aren't mottled.

ETA: They're as well worn as the 32 SA. Checkering is barely visible and the bottom ridge of the circle on the left hand stock is worn smooth. The right side still displays a full circle ridge. I've looked at pictures from other SA, mostly Baby Russian, and the block type/ampersand/skinny last line of the W all the way down to the period at the end of it looks the same.

I'm just not finding anything on olive green. Do you think perhaps that these have been coated w/something? The outside is smooth & shiny though the inside is dull except for where the grip frame has come into contact. There's nothing on the inside of the right hand stock. Would you suggest washing it w/toothbrush and dish-washing liquid to see if appears green though dull? I'm guessing that the inside of the stock would be the last clue unto hue.

ETA II: Even lightly running my fingernail across the inside of the stock will leave a line. The alleged possible number then is quite a stretch and probably nothing more than a collection of scratches. No shortage of dust/lint/accumulated oxidation from the frame.

I bought this for 50 clams several years ago as an inexpensive example of a top beak SA. I remember the circumstances and being somewhat disappointed that a chip was missing from the butt of one stock. They still though well worn looked better than the condition of the little pistola.

I've also just noticed ridges running sort of perpendicular w/medallion circle only, naturally at the top half/180* of the circle. These hash marks are only visible on the small section that's left exposed from the frame. They're also on a diagonal slant and at the top of the ampersand the slant flops changing direction as a mirrored effect. Peculiar to me as well as obviously intentional. The unaided eye would just about have to know that they were there to see them, yet the loupe pulls out the detail very nicely. Being so close to the frame w/o butting up to the frame has preserved this curious feature. With limited resolution allowed pics on this forum I'm not sure even w/stacked macro lenses that I could pull out enough detail to show these alternating hash marks.

Surely by now I've exhausted all clues. I predict by 233 views I'll have my answer.[only 69 to go!]

Pg.80- Picture of the 1st model Baby Russian shows it also has strain screw on front strap though I've no clue what the SN is on pictured gun or range when started. As I understand, discounting my barrel w/o legible SN, my .38 SA frame SN 6050 could only be a Number Two 1st or second issue. I'm sure that a SN check of when the 1st issue/1st model/Baby Russian became equipped w/strain screw on inside frame strap could substantiate whether the possibility exists. Nevertheless a single action top break w/o separate rounded trigger guard in .38 w/frame extension on both sides protecting spur trigger in a round butt has to be either the first or second model. Were my SN > than 25548 then I could eliminate the possibility of a 1st model having a barrel swap. However, I'll wager that the strain screw on the front strap combined w/6050 indeed will show this to be a model two. As well since mine has the two screw sideplate if the 1st model first production run exceeded 6050 then that also would eliminate the possibility of anything other than the Model 2/2nd issue.

Now, what does this have to do w/Baby Russian block style S&W. dark green stocks? It could perhaps validate a time frame when this style of stock was available. Since 108,255 .38 SA 2nd Mod/Mod 2 2nd issue were manufactured c. 1877-1891 it is conceivable that early Mod 2/2nd issue could have been available w/same Baby Russian style stocks as carryovers from the first/only year 1876 run of the 1st mod/mod #2 1st mod.

Interestingly enough, or not dependent on final conclusion, I come back to that picture on pg. 80. The second model pictured has the other style, circled S&W monogram & middle of butt "point" to the inside diamond, stocks. Also appears that the small ridge of exposed back strap is more prominent on the second model. I'll guess that this is also due to the construction of the second model stocks. Or perhaps the first model in the pic, resting lower and more to the left of the box is canted a mite subduing the back strap.

This inquiring mind wants to know when the stock styles changed from the one shown in the pic on the 1st mod to the one shown on the second mod.

Certainly no holy grail though the dark green, supposedly as near as I can tell olive wasn't used in combination w/green this early, is a mite interesting.

 

[opoefc]

I would have to see the grips in person to give an opinion on whether the color green has anything to do with their original color when manufactured. The block S&W is the early type used on the .38 SAs. S&W did ship guns with various mottled colored grips - red, blue, light green and yellow, are some I've seen. No solid olive greens, however. Exposure to sun light over a long period of time can change the color of the original black to a light to chocolate brown color, due to the effect of the light on the chemicals used to produce the hard rubber compound. Ed.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Thanks Ed for the response. Upon looking closer at them I have to come to the conclusion that they have been sprayed w/some type of olive green shellac/lacquer.

At first I couldn't understand why I could see the worn checkering, yet only feel a smooth surface. I had mostly been looking at the chipped stock then I finally found a section on the good stock where I could feel the worn checkering. It doesn't exhibit the same olive because it is black. Faded black and blends in well w/olive, but black nonetheless.
It was fun researching and I'm glad to have an example of the block type.

Perhaps someone could help me in suggesting what to use in order to clean these enhanced stocks.

 

[glowe]

It is almost certainly an oxidation process or reaction to something it was stored with that turned the stocks green. Normally, hard rubber turns brown as Ed states, but I have seen greenish brown colors in these old hard rubber stocks. I would guess that it may have been stored with something that could have reacted with the rubber in a confined space.

The story behind the logo is that the intertwined logo was designed by Gustave Young and was used starting in 1879.

There is really no way to clean the rubber back to black without removing some of the surface, so best left alone. I wonder where that revolver has been in the last 150 years?????

 

[Nicksterdemus]

I don't qualify as an amateur sleuth or firearm aficionado though I enjoy the chase in spite of bungling attempt. A Clouseau of sorts specializing in ineptitude. I suppose the stocks could've undergone a reaction. I hadn't given that any consideration. They have a crazed/glazed look for the most part save the one section, below screw towards front strap, where the worn checkering is exposed easily detected by fingernail. Much more so on the left side, so I'll have to rescind my original thought of left hand wear pattern.

I know of no story behind these. I bought the SA38 from a gent that had some type of small business in the old downtown section of Little Rock 5 or 6 years ago.

An aunt of mine had lived just down the road from there in the 40's and my mother, fresh from north AR, lived a few blocks down and not far from the capitol after landing a job as a elevator operator in the cutting edge Donaghey building.

History & Architecture: Arkansas Historic Preservation Program

That's the old section of town and not too awfully far from where troops of the northern aggression hung a seventeen year old David O. Dodd a mere thirteen years, 1864, before this sidearm was manufactured in 1877. Which is three years before the birth of Arkansas's favorite son, General Douglas MacArthur. Alleged by some to have been born inside the Little Rock Arsenal building that was erected in 1840. In the same neck of the woods, north of I-30, east of I-630 and west of the Arkansas river, it is currently MacArthur Park.

Not sure were the pistola was shipped and have even less idea where it resided before finding way into my care. Regardless of hue, it allowed me opportunity to become reacquainted w/the old SA and was certainly more enjoyable than hacking Callery pear, Bradford pears evil thorny invasive cousin , saplings up to 8" diameter w/21" machete.

The 6050 SN was most appealing as combined w/block style S&W. stocks lends credit to speculated date of manufacture of 1877.

Thanks for the input and sharing.