38 smith and wesson CTG..Elliot Ness

[dm1877]

Inherited a pistol given to my great grandfather by a friend and colleague Elliot Ness who confiscated it from a notorious Mobster. Wanting to find more info if anybody has knowledge. The pistol is what I have found to be a hammerless lemon squeezer With the Initials FM engraved on the handle were the S&W symbol is. Any help regarding knowledge or info of history and year of pistol would be greatly appreciated!

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[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. Interesting story, but that gun is not a Smith & Wesson. There were several companies that made safety hammerless revolvers and the logo under that gunk on the stocks might indicate which company made the gun. Also, check the top of the barrel for a stamping and let us know what it says?

 

[dm1877]

Welcome to the Forum. Interesting story, but that gun is not a Smith & Wesson. There were several companies that made safety hammerless revolvers and the logo under that gunk on the stocks might indicate which company made the gun. Also, check the top of the barrel for a stamping and let us know what it says?

Thanks for the help. The top of the Barrel says
Warner Arms corporation
Norwich, Conn

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[BMur]

Norwich Ct.

Just a tidbit of researched info.

Norwich, Ct. was a huge gun manufacturing town. Many gun makers resided there. Including the early Smith & Wesson Plant prior to moving to Springfield. Often the smaller gun makers used Trade names to sell their products without actually stamping their company name on the gun. The Warner Arms Co. is likely a trade name for some Major Distributor. Many such made up names exist. Scott company, Hartford co. etc....They didn't actually exist.
The real origin of the firearm or the maker was very likely The Norwich Falls Pistol Co of Norwich Ct. or Otis A. Smiths Rockfall plant that would have had a large letter S' or a K' on the grips or a US. Extremely common Smith & Wesson copies were made toward the latter part of the 1890's.
In my researched opinion they did not stamp their company name on the gun to avoid a lawsuit for copyright infringement. Pretty slick if you ask me.

There is one sure fire way to date this copy. Take the grips off and see if it has a straight spring? If it does then it's an early copy. From about 1889-1905....If it has a V' spring? then its a much later copy that can date to as late as the 1920's. I would be interested in knowing what kind of spring is there.

Murph

 

[glowe]

Thanks for the help. The top of the Barrel says
Warner Arms corporation
Norwich, Conn

Warner Arms was a trade-name for a this model and most likely manufactured by H&D Folsom Arms Company, a large firearms manufacturer and distributor. It was made for Kirkland Brothers in New York. There is no information on this company, but I would venture to guess it was another distributor or hardware store. The trade name Warner was established in 1912 and Folsom sold shotguns, rifles, and revolvers under that name until 1917.

The company was purchased by Nathan R. Davis in 1917. This company was an old shotgun manufacturer in business from 1853 to 1919.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

Folsom Arms

Warner Arms was a trade-name for a this model and most likely manufactured by H&D Folsom Arms Company, a large firearms manufacturer and distributor. It was made for Kirkland Brothers in New York. There is no information on this company, but I would venture to guess it was another distributor or hardware store. The trade name Warner was established in 1912 and Folsom sold shotguns, rifles, and revolvers under that name until 1917.

The company was purchased by Nathan R. Davis in 1917. This company was an old shotgun manufacturer in business from 1853 to 1919.

Gary that is interesting, another odd thing about Folsom Arms, I own a S&W Model of 91 single shot pistol with the rare 6 inch 32 cal. barrel in Nickel, it lettered as being shipped to them

 

[gen3guy]

The "Untouchables" lore surrounding this gun would be difficult to prove. It is an interesting old piece though and I'm sure it would have a story to tell.

 

[murphydog]

A common marketing ploy in that era was to (technically) "stamp the gun with the chambering" and hope buyers would think it was a Smith & Wesson product.

 

[BMur]

Major Distributor "Marketing Ploy"

The Op's gun is the "Perfect" example of the typical "Marketing Ploy" that was extremely common of the Major Distributor of that ERA.

The guns were actually manufactured at some small and obscure Factory in another State while the Major Distributor in New York claimed "Our New Model is Superior to all others" Best price on the Market! When in fact they did not actually manufacture the gun. They most definitely sold the gun but It was actually manufactured by a gun maker that they held a large stock holding and basically controlled. This is proven several times with in depth research. The real challenge is to actually prove who really made the gun. Not who sold the gun. Google searches are not gospel. In fact they are more likely to contain bogus information that is poorly researched. You will find with in depth research that the Major Distributor would even stamp their name on several guns. Including Shotguns, rifles and pistols. Often if you look closely, you will notice that the Distributor name "lacks" the term "manufactured by".

A excellent and very basic example would be Merwin & Hulbert? Did they actually have a gun making factory? Or did Hopkins & Allen make guns for them? When they became the majority stock holder of the original Hopkins & Allen manufacturing plant? Things really got confusing.


Murph

 

[Tom K]

Regardless of who actually manufactured the gun, it's still a junker with no significant value other than perhaps as a shooter. The story that goes with it - without any official documentation - is just that, a story and also has no significant value outside of your family.

There's a saying in collecting, "Buy the gun, not the story."

 

[cowboy4evr]

Yes , " stories are just that , stories " . I have a gold watch that has been passed down several generations . As the story goes , my ancestor lived by himself with his very young 4-5 yr old son on a farm in the middle of nowhere in the Dakota's . One day 2 riders stopped , told him they would be staying there a little while . One of the riders horse had a gun shot would and needed tending to . They told him to keep quiet about their being there and no harm would come to him nor his son . In the evening one of the men held the small boy on his lap and was teaching him to read . There was 2 books in the house , a McGuffeys reader and a bible . Each night he would read to the young boy , showing what the words were saying . The 2 riders were very kind to both the dad and the son . The dad happened to be very good with horses and helped heal the wounded horse . When they got ready to leave after more than a month , the one rider whose horse had been wounded gave the father a $20 gold piece and a gold watch , thanked him kindly and both left . Who were the 2 riders ? As the story goes , Frank and Jessie James after the failed bank robbery in Minnesota . I have the gold watch . There are no markings , nothing to validate the story . It seems that Jessie had a habit of relieving a person of his gold watch that they were robbing . As the story goes , it was Frank James that was so kind to the boy , teaching him to read . So , like I said . " A story is just a story " . Regards Paul

 

[opoefc]

I have a S&W Model 2 Army "Boot" gun ( cut barrel, bobbed hammer & rounded butt ) handed down to me from a relative of my late wife's who was a Pinkerton descendent. Story with the gun is that this boot gun was the gun that a Pinkerton undercover detective used to kill John Younger in a gun fight in St Claire County, Mo., Mar. 1874. John Younger was the first member of the James-Younger gang to be killed by law enforcement. Great gun & great story - now having said all that, I have to find John's grave, dig him up and see if the bullet is still in the body. If so, extract it & compare ballistcs with the boot gun, right ? If I get a hit - gun's for sale to the first buyer with $100,000. Ed.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I love this campfire...............