.38 spcl/158gr SWC/Unique--What's the real maximum standard load?

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

I've been working up a max standard pressure defense load for use in my vintage Detective Specials. 158 gr LSWCHP/Unique/Winchester primers. The data are is over the map--
Hornady 1973 manual--max 6.1 grains (not designated +P)
Speer 1974 manual-- max 4.7 gr
Lyman 1970 manual-- max 5.4 gr
Lyman 1973 cast manual--max 5.1
Hornady 5th edition manual--max 4.2
Alliant manual-- max 4.3 gr (they list 4.5 gr as "plus P")

Any wise advice as to how hot I can safely load for these old guns would be appreciated. I recently saw a vintage Colt ad which listed the ammo suited to the D Special. They included the 38/44 loads--no thanks

 

[Skip Sackett]

bmcgilvray will be around soon. He uses Unique on his Wheaties!

I am a late comer to Unique. I know that is sacrilege to some. I have found a wonderful use for it though. Just not in the 38Spl!

 

[Erich]

Why just read Alliant's reloading guide, handily available online.

How "vintage" are your DSs? I used to go pretty easy on my 1916 Police Positive Special.

But my "standard" Unique loading is right there as the max in the Lyman 1970. Not that I'd encourage any of you to use it - while it's always worked in my guns, it's clearly too puissant for modern steels. Uncle Erich says to be sure not to use any load that might scare a lawyer at Alliant!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I love Unique. Kinda hard for me to believe sometimes, but I probably use more Unique and 231 than any other powders anymore. Even more than 2400 and H-110 these days.

In Handloader #217 Brian Pearce has a bunch of loads listed for both standard and plus P levels. I have used several of them in my guns.

He shows a load of 5 grains of Unique under the 173 grain Lyman 358429 Keith bullet as being pressure tested to be at, or under standard SAAMI pressure levels of 17,000 psi, and giving a muzzle velocity of 932 fps.

In my 15-3 it is a nice and accurate load, and for defense, I would have total confidence in it, especially if I had to go through winter type clothing.

Since you are asking about loads for a 158 grain cast bullet though, he shows 4.8 grains of it under the Speer 158 swaged swc hp as giving 898 fps from a M-14 S&W. It is a lighter charge weight load than the one for the heavier Lyman bullet because the Speer bullet is soft and will lead at speeds much over 800-900 fps, so he was staying within those guidelines.

In the +P load data he shows 5.5 grains of Unique under the Lyman Keith bullet as giving 1002 fps from a 6" M 14 S&W. I have fired this one too, and it is as accurate as the standard pressure load, and it is definately one to be taken seriously for defense if your gun will handle them.

It would be a safe load with any 158 grain cast SWC that has an as seated depth inside the case that is no greater than the Lyman bullet, since the Lyman bullet is heavier and has as long, or even longer bearing surface. I have had no trouble what so ever when switching from the 173 Keith bullet to 158 cast swc's. Recoil is a bit less with the lighter bullet, and accuracy remains about equal with the slugs I have on hand.

As always: Start low and work up in your gun watching for any signs of excess pressure.

 

[Rule3]

Well the average of all those loads comes to 4.966 grs.
Take out the high value and the low value comes to 4.879 average.

But don't forget, these are all different tests, dates and probably different bullets. Every test varies.

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

Thanks for the great replies.
Hadn't thought of averaging the loads but I started out with 4.7
grains....the average came to 4.8--pretty close. 4.7 chronographs at 795 out of my LCR ....not bad....might move up in 10th grain increments and hope to get up to 850 fs or so by the time I reach 5 gr.
Nice old PP Erich! I've got a '27...a reblue but a sweet old gun.
I go easy on it--3.3 gr of Trailboss/158gr SWC....light load that shoots to point of aim.
I'd like to try that 173 gr. Keith bullet. Do you cast them or buy them? My casting gear has been in mothballs for 30 years but guess I could break it out....

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

PS--
To answer your question Erich, my Detective Specials are a '36 and a '60. I use the LCR for test purposes and occasional carry.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Go to this site, then scroll down to the listiings for "revolver". You'll see the Keith bullet-
Mt. Baldy Bullets

and here. Click on the pick of the bullet that you are interested in and it will open a window with a larger view-

Beartooth Bullets Secure Online Shopping

 

[Treeman]

5.0 grains of Unique has been a standard pressure load in .38 spl. since 1935 (Phil Sharpe's manual) Notwithstanding the plethora of lighter load data (much of it linked to swaged bullets which are sometimes loaded light to prevent barrel leading issues) good manuals have continued to list 5 grains or a bit more as standard pressure loads all the way thru to the present. 5.4-5.5 has likewise been listed in MANY sources as a +P loading with 158-160 grain bullets. A few sources from the 38/44 era 'til the present have presented 6 grains of Unique as a max load with 158-160 SWC.....most of those sources don't provide pressure data but one that did had the 6 grain load as 25kCUP-which is over SAAMI but under Proof pressures.
My standard .38spl load is 5 grains of unique with a 160. It leaves very little to be desired.

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

Thanks again guys.
I noted that Keith bullets can be purchased sized but not lubed pretty inexpensively ($11/100). I may see if my old Lyman 45 still works and lube them myself.
Treeman, Looks like 5 grains is where I'm headed. Is the Phil Sharpe book available in reprint? I have an original copy of his "The American Rifle" that was given to me decades ago by the man who got me started handloading...quite a treasure.

 

[Steve C]

Using 5.0grs of Unique from PMC cases with WSP primers and Speer 158gr LSWCHP bullets I chrono'd the average velocity from my Colt DS @ 782 fps.

From a 4" S&W 67 it ran 901 fps.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lyman #49 (2010) and Lyman Cast Handbook #4 (2011) both list the Max charge of Unique as 4.5gr under a 158gr lead bullet.

Lyman Cast Handbook #3 (1980) lists a Max charge of 5.1gr Unique and a charge of 5.4gr for a +P load.

 

[Skip Sackett]

subliminal message to follow:

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I just wondered if you would ever consider breaking out your old casting gear. Maybe you could cast your own bullets. That way, you could be unaffected by bullet shortages, have what you want when you want in the quantities you want at the price you want.


Again, just wondering!


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Subliminal message ending:

 

[blujax01]

I've been working up a max standard pressure defense load for use in my vintage Detective Specials. 158 gr LSWCHP/Unique/Winchester primers. The data are is over the map--
Hornady 1973 manual--max 6.1 grains (not designated +P)
Speer 1974 manual-- max 4.7 gr
Lyman 1970 manual-- max 5.4 gr
Lyman 1973 cast manual--max 5.1
Hornady 5th edition manual--max 4.2
Alliant manual-- max 4.3 gr (they list 4.5 gr as "plus P")

Any wise advice as to how hot I can safely load for these old guns would be appreciated. I recently saw a vintage Colt ad which listed the ammo suited to the D Special. They included the 38/44 loads--no thanks

That spread is insane. From 4.2 up to 6.1?! If my math is correct, you're talking a reduction of 30% by weight over the past three decades.
Is this pretty much across the board for all calibers?
I get that the product liability brought on by stupid humans has caused the manufacturers to call in the lawyers but there has to be an impetus.
Was there an influx of cheaply made handguns in the 70's and 80's that in part may have caused this?
Not to start a war, but when was the Glock introduced?
I do know that on Buffalo Bore's site, they specifically prohibit the use of some of their ammo in some Taurus guns. No doubt some Jack Wagon is gonna blow himself up anyway and sue.
All this leads me to believe that pre-70's Smith's and Colts have a bunch of unlocked potential - and that in itself can lead to another dangerous thought ...

 

[Maximumbob54]

What are you guys using to meter out Unique? I have tried in my RCBS Uniflow, Lyman Ideal 55, and Lee Pro Auto Disk. The Auto Disk ran the best but the flakes would gum up under the nylon wiper after a while. The RCBS and Lyman both seem to bind or jam every so often and never meter out the same amount for me. I get some light and then some heavy. I have a worse time with Trail Boss. TB I have given up on but I have a pound of Unique that I would still love to use.

 

[Fkimble]

Ralph G. where did you find unlubed Keiths for $11 per hundred? Too expensive for plinking for me but would make a good carry load for my 28 and Security Six for wondering in the woods.

 

[Rule3]

What are you guys using to meter out Unique? I have tried in my RCBS Uniflow, Lyman Ideal 55, and Lee Pro Auto Disk. The Auto Disk ran the best but the flakes would gum up under the nylon wiper after a while. The RCBS and Lyman both seem to bind or jam every so often and never meter out the same amount for me. I get some light and then some heavy. I have a worse time with Trail Boss. TB I have given up on but I have a pound of Unique that I would still love to use.

If you are not in a hurry and do not need a lot:

Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit - MidwayUSA

 

[Skip Sackett]

What are you guys using to meter out Unique? I have tried in my RCBS Uniflow, Lyman Ideal 55, and Lee Pro Auto Disk. The Auto Disk ran the best but the flakes would gum up under the nylon wiper after a while. The RCBS and Lyman both seem to bind or jam every so often and never meter out the same amount for me. I get some light and then some heavy. I have a worse time with Trail Boss. TB I have given up on but I have a pound of Unique that I would still love to use.

For light loads with any bulky powder and the Lyman #55 try this: Only open the upper most slide. This will make the cavity to fill longer and not deeper. It seems for me with deeper cavity openings, I get bridging more often.

This works for me with the Lyman. Give it a try. If you need more powder, you may be up a creek with this method. If I remember correctly though, you should be able to get into the 6gr range. At work or I would try it to let you know what I get.

Just a slave to the time clock!

 

[samwood]

I've followed OCD1's advice with the Lee Dippers. I need to try smith crazy's method with the Lyman 55 I have.

I purchased additional dippers in the 0.5cc, 0.7cc, and 0.1cc sizes and modified them to throw various charges of Unique within the 3.0 gr. to 8.7 gr. range. I have more confidence in the consistency of this method for my use than using any of the other powder measures I have. I don't feel the need to constantly check my charge weights on my scale.

 

[Erich]

Ralph, I'd go easy on the '36, but that's just me.