38 Special 158 gr LRN-good enough?

[38-44HD45]

I agree that it'll work fine if you place it right. Might overpenetrate. Not my first choice by any means, but I'd rather have that than a 100-gr zippity-doo-dah-fang-face-pre-fragmented-SEALTEAMSIX-DeathStar-Lazergraved-blastopoint.

As long as one carries the +P+, gold-plated, mercury-filled version of the blastopoint, he'll be well-served.

 

[Hoptob]

zippity-doo-dah-fang-face-pre-fragmented-SEALTEAMSIX-DeathStar-Lazergraved-blastopoint

This has got to be it:

Not much penetration but real good OSS record.



Mike

 

[duckloads]

For all you .38 Special fans, especially Snubbie people, how many of you have been in a gunfight with a .38 Special or have even talked 1/1 with someone who has. I have never been in a gunfight with a .38 because I have never carried one but I have spoken with many fellow officers who have and with one exception none ever carried a .38 again.

On the other hand I have spoken with dozens of officers who have been in shooting with 9mm, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum and .357 Magnum and read other reports on .357 SIG and .40 S&W and none ever changed gun even when they could have.

And it isn't that the Shootees didn't die, because almost all of them did....the problem was that they didn't stop what they were doing when the officer wanted them to....like when the bullet hit. When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them. What you want is instant behavior modification, and in that the .38 fails time after time...

Bob Makowski

Bob,

I certainly do not want to get into a debate with you, but a sentence in your last paragraph bothers me. "When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them."

I have no law enforcement background, so I'll get that fact out of the way. I did have a father who knew how much I liked guns and shooting in general. He taught me that the ONLY reason to pull on gun on someone was to shoot them NOW without hesitation and with every intention of killing them. His reason might mave been so that I would keep the gun in my pocket.

That's just what I was taught.

 

[Landric]

Bob,

I certainly do not want to get into a debate with you, but a sentence in your last paragraph bothers me. "When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them."

I have no law enforcement background, so I'll get that fact out of the way. I did have a father who knew how much I liked guns and shooting in general. He taught me that the ONLY reason to pull on gun on someone was to shoot them NOW without hesitation and with every intention of killing them. His reason might mave been so that I would keep the gun in my pocket.

That's just what I was taught.

The general feeling when it comes to shooting in self-defense is that one's intent is to stop the threat, not kill the person acting out the threat. Of course, the best way to stop the person is to inflict a serious enough wound(s) that they cease what they are doing immediately. Obviously such wounds can and regularly do result in death. That is an acceptable outcome, but its not the defenders intent. The simple fact is that an instant stop that the attacker survives is just as good as an instant stop in which the attacker is killed. Whether or not the perpetrator lives or not has no real relevance to the goal at hand.

 

[stiab]

I have spoken with many fellow officers...

On the other hand I have spoken with dozens of officers...

Sounds like you do a lot of talking.

 

[SuperMan]

Sounds like you do a lot of talking.

..no, I do a lot of listening.



"I certainly do not want to get into a debate with you, but a sentence in your last paragraph bothers me. "When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them."

I have no law enforcement background, so I'll get that fact out of the way. I did have a father who knew how much I liked guns and shooting in general. He taught me that the ONLY reason to pull on gun on someone was to shoot them NOW without hesitation and with every intention of killing them. His reason might may been so that I would keep the gun in my pocket."

"with every intention of killing them."...say that in court and you can end up with a murder charge. As was said above the intent is to stop the threat, not to kill the person. That is "behavior modification". As one of my instructors once put it and I often repeat... "a gun is the ultimate behavior modification tool". I added to that "death however can be a byproduct of that behavior modification".

You are probably correct in what your father was trying to impress upon you was that a) once you pull the gun you have to have justification to use it and b) once pulled you have to be willing to...which may result in the death of another.


Bob

 

[7shooter]

Jim Cirillo has written about how risky it was to have 158 LRN ammo for the NYPD. He describes one situation where two officers were leaving the store where they had been set up for the stakeout squad. They only had their 5 and 6 shot revolvers when an armed robber entered the store. They emptied all 11 158 LRN into the felon and most hit him in the head. He was able to walk out of the store and even sneezed one of the bullets out of his nose. None penetrated his skull. Cirillo also wrote about the danger of that round going through the bad guy and hitting an innocent person. Cirillo made his own ammo for duty and did a lot of experimentation with bullet shape. He had the advantage of being able to check his results at autopsy. His books about the stakeout squad before it was disbanded by supervisory cowards makes for fascinating reading.